Introduction to Devlyn and Randy's Story

John Dehlin [00:00:00] What happens when you're a Mormon Elder Scorm president and your wife starts to question the truthfulness of the Mormon church? Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is June 25, 2026, and we are here today to hear a story about navigating a mixed faith marriage within a Mormon context. In this case, the husband is a faithful, devout. Well, both of the members of the marriage with young kids are devout, faithful Mormons. But one of the members of the marriage, in this case, the wife, starts to question and doubt and even find healing and growth apart from the church. And then the other member of the marriage, in this case the husband, who might tend to have a little bit of religious OCD or scrupulosity in that context, is trying, trying to navigate his religious orthodoxy with being married to, or some would jokingly say, sleeping with the enemy. And how do you raise kids in that context? And what happens when you see that maybe your partner is starting to get healthier outside of religious observance than inside? So there's so much we're going to be talking about in today's Mormon story, but the main theme is navigating a mixed faith marriage in a high demand religion or in Mormonism. And the couple who we're interviewing today is coming all the way from Arizona. We have Devlin Day. Hey, Devlin.

Devlyn Day [00:01:39] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:01:39] Thanks for joining us.

Devlyn Day [00:01:40] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:01:42] And we have Randy Day. Hey, Randy.

Randy Day [00:01:44] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:01:45] Appreciate your both of your willingness to tell your story. Thank you. And if that weren't enough, back on Mormon Stories podcast. We've missed her. We have Margi as the co host today. Co pilot. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:01] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:02:01] Thanks for joining.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:02] My pleasure.

John Dehlin [00:02:04] All right, well, Devlin and Randy, anything I got wrong in the intro or anything you want to add or edit to the intro before we jump into your mixed faith Mormon story?

Devlyn Day [00:02:16] No, that's good.

John Dehlin [00:02:17] Yeah.

Randy Day [00:02:18] Yeah. I think you spot on.

John Dehlin [00:02:19] Did we get it?

Margi Dehlin [00:02:20] You nailed it.

Randy Day [00:02:20] I'm good with it.

John Dehlin [00:02:22] All right. Okay, well, let's jump in. Who's older of the two?

Devlyn Day [00:02:28] Me.

John Dehlin [00:02:29] Devlin is.

Devlyn Day [00:02:29] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:02:30] All right, well, maybe we'll start with your Mormon story. Is that all right?

Devlyn Day [00:02:33] That's fine.

John Dehlin [00:02:34] Okay, so tell me about your parents. Were they Mormon and where does your Mormon story begin?

Devlyn Day [00:02:41] Yeah, so my parents were both born and raised Mormon. My grandmas were both born and raised Mormon with pioneer heritage. And both my grandpas were converts to the church after marrying my grandmas.

John Dehlin [00:02:59] Okay. Flirt to convert.

Devlyn Day [00:03:01] Yep, very much.

John Dehlin [00:03:02] Okay, so you've got that pioneer heritage on both sides. Through your grandma's?

Devlyn Day [00:03:06] Through my grandma's, yes.

John Dehlin [00:03:07] And then. Yeah, and then their husbands were converts. So where were you raised?

Devlyn Day [00:03:13] Mesa, Arizona.

John Dehlin [00:03:15] Okay, so this is an Arizona Mormon story.

Devlyn Day [00:03:18] Yeah. I have both of my grandparents settled parts of Arizona on both sides. So I have schnefs on my dad's side and eagers on my mom's side. So been here for a while.

John Dehlin [00:03:32] Yeah. And I don't think non Mormons will know that this sort of Mesa, this Phoenix suburbs. So Mesa, Gilbert, Chandler, Tempe, Queen Creek. Some call that like Provo South. Have you heard that?

Devlyn Day [00:03:47] Yeah, we say it's the Valley and it's very highly Mormon populated.

Randy Day [00:03:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:53] So you feel like it was the city you grew up in was very Mormon.

Devlyn Day [00:03:58] Yeah, yeah, very.

John Dehlin [00:04:00] Even though it's Arizona.

Devlyn Day [00:04:01] Yeah. I felt like I lived in a

John Dehlin [00:04:03] bubble, a Mormon bubble. Even though it's near Phoenix. Because the Mesa Temple is one of the first temples built, right?

Devlyn Day [00:04:10] Yes, it was. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:12] This is just for fun, but when I was growing up in Houston, the Mesa Temple was my temple.

Devlyn Day [00:04:17] Oh, wow.

John Dehlin [00:04:18] So when we did temple trips, we would drive all the way to Mesa.

Devlyn Day [00:04:21] Yeah.

Devlyn's Mormon Childhood and Adolescence

John Dehlin [00:04:21] Anyway, so, okay, so Mesa and what was your. Just quickly, what was your Mormon upbringing like? Was it traditional? Was it non traditional?

Devlyn Day [00:04:30] I would say it was pretty tradition. My parents were married very young. I would say my mom was probably a little more orthodox devout than my dad was raised. And I would say, like, she really kind of held the, like, church and everything. Like she was the one pushing for everything. And my dad was kind of long for the ride up until I was like, really young teenager. And then he got called to be a ward missionary and he really loved the calling and he kind of dove more into the church and I felt that's when they really, I would say, were more intense. But even as a young child, it was like family home evening. We went to church. We didn't like, shop or eat out on Sunday. We didn't watch TV on Sunday, so didn't play with friends on Sunday. So we were pretty devout.

Margi Dehlin [00:05:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:32] Do you have fond memories of your Mormon childhood and even your Mormon adolescence?

Devlyn Day [00:05:38] Yeah, yeah, I would say there were a lot of, like, really good things about it. The community, the ward I grew up in was very, like, tight knit and, you know, mostly all my neighbors that I grew up with and I had really great leaders and a lot of family, too. All my family lived really close. Grandparents, cousins, aunts, uncles I saw on a weekly basis and were always there for all our milestones. And so I would say it was a pretty idyllic childhood.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:18] Can I ask you about that for a second?

Devlyn Day [00:06:20] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:21] So you're describing both your family kind of settling the area, Is that right? And then having a lot of family, cousins, grandparents in the area. Was there a sense of family name then and living up to a family name?

Devlyn Day [00:06:40] Yeah. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:41] Yeah. You felt that. Did you feel that as a girl or did that come later?

Devlyn Day [00:06:45] I would say more as a teenager.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:48] Okay.

Devlyn Day [00:06:48] Yeah. But I feel like as a child, being told stories of our family and sacrifices that are, you know, ancestors and stuff had made, being pioneers, I think that kind of led up to us being a teenager, feeling that, like, sense of my good name was important.

John Dehlin [00:07:11] You mentioned a couple names, which. Which was your maiden name, so my

Devlyn Day [00:07:15] maiden name is Kanega, but my grandmother was a schnef, so they settled a lot of Queen Creek Schneff Farms and that area. Okay, got it.

John Dehlin [00:07:25] Okay. When you talk about your adolescence, I know that later you're going to be talking about becoming a young mother, and maybe that that wasn't all you thought it was, and that eventually might lead to some of your questions or doubts. What did you feel like you absorbed from your Mormon upbringing about your purpose as a woman, your future role as a mother, all that?

Margi Dehlin [00:07:53] Yeah.

Devlyn Day [00:07:54] I think from a young age, I was told, like, being a mother was really important and got the message that I was going to get married in the temple and I was going to have children. I got that a lot from church and probably a lot from family, too. But my parents also were really good about, like, asking us about our dreams and aspirations and, like, supporting us in that. So I also got a lot of, like, what do you want to do from my. My family, my mom and my dad. So I didn't think a ton about, like, motherhood as a younger child. It wasn't until I got into young women's that I felt like I was inundated with, like, this is my purpose. This is what makes me a whole person. That makes my life worthwhile is becoming a wife and a mother. It was like, almost all we talked

Margi Dehlin [00:08:45] about,

Devlyn Day [00:08:48] and I remember not even really wanting kids. I was. I remember thinking I wanted to, like, be a veterinarian and probably get married closer to 30 and then maybe have one or two kids. But once I hit young women's, it was like, oh, no, I need to get married, like, as soon as I graduate high school and start having kids right away. And so my goals and dreams kind of shifted around that age, like, probably around, like, 14, I would say I started feeling that sense.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:17] Yeah. How about with regard to, let's just say, characteristics of a woman in the church? I'm curious how you describe what messages you received around what it means to be a woman and of, like, a righteous woman and then if there were points of differentiation for you, personality wise. Yes.

Purity Culture and Women's Roles in the Church

Devlyn Day [00:09:45] So a lot of what I was told about being a value, obviously, like, purity and modesty were heavily talked about in, like, I was a teenager in the early 2000s. I was the era of, like, modesty, checking to go to dances or activities. So a lot of, like, being a pure person so that the boys didn't slip, so the boys didn't stumble because of us. So I really took that on of being, like, a really good girl. Also being not too loud, either in my opinions or voice, and also in my dress and appearance. I tended to, like, be really artistic. And I always thought, like, tattoos and piercings and bright hair colors and fun hairstyles. I leaned towards really enjoying that, but I was told that was not appropriate, and so I had to tone that down a lot.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:53] I see. Yeah. Okay. So was that an inner. An inner point of differentiation or did you have moments of living or trying that out and then experiencing what happens when you kind of like, was that lived or is it something that you just noticed, like, connecting with yourself? Like, I actually really love that. But that's bad. So versus, like, no, I'm going to play with my hair, have it be pink, and then trying it, and then

Devlyn Day [00:11:23] a little bit of both. I would say mostly internal, but there were a few points, I think more in high school, I did add some pink to my hair. Um, I did, like, wear things that maybe, like, were a little more edgy. I mean, now looking back, they weren't, but, like, for me, they felt me.

John Dehlin [00:11:41] They felt edgy.

Devlyn Day [00:11:42] Yes. They felt more edgy for me, maybe just pushing the line a little bit, but not too hard because I was also very worried about what people thought of me.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:51] Yeah.

Devlyn Day [00:11:52] So it was kind of like a push and pull.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:56] Okay. Yeah. I'm hearing kind of artistic and also expressive, wanting to kind of express yourself in those ways. Any other points of differentiation between, let's just say the ideal. What was kind of presented to you as the ideal version of a woman and kind of your personality or how you feel like you were showing up as a child or a teenager?

Devlyn Day [00:12:25] Yeah, I think, I mean, mainly, like, being really sweet, very agreeable. And I think, not that I wasn't sweet, but I was opinionated. And I felt like I didn't do it with a. Like, a lot of people, but with my parents, I think I gave a little more pushback on, like, my opinions or feelings when I didn't like something. But mainly I learned that I needed to, like, keep quiet, be agreeable, be a peacemaker, make others comfortable, not be selfish, which, in my mind, I interpreted more like, put others before yourself, always. And that led to me not always taking care of myself because I felt like taking care of myself was selfish. So I would say that's some of the things I kind of, like, absorbed.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:20] Yeah. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:13:23] So as you are, let's just say by the time you graduate from high school, did your enjoyment of kind of your Mormon upbringing continue through graduation of high school? Did you have a good youth experience, a young women experience, dating, all that stuff? Were there any big bumps in your Mormon faith or your enjoyment of your Mormon upbringing or your spirituality?

Devlyn Day [00:13:51] Yeah, I think overall I enjoyed it. And as a youth, I really felt like my testimony was pretty strong. I did have a few little moments where I would have thoughts or experiences that kind of would trigger a, oh, do I really believe this? But it would be, like, momentary. I would almost instantly snap into. Of course it's real. Of course it is true. I had a really good group of friends. Some were a little more rebellious than me and pushed the line more than me, and I never joined them in those things. But overall, I had a really good youth experience. I would say maybe the only thing I didn't enjoy was I am not an extroverted person. I'm a lot more private and introverted, and I felt a lot of pressure to perform, bear my testimony, give talks, give scripture, you know, share, be a missionary, give out scriptures. And I did not enjoy that. And I felt really uncomfortable with it a lot of the time and would try to avoid doing those things, but still, like, be a good member.

John Dehlin [00:15:07] Got it.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:08] Ooh, that's so relatable, Devlin.

Devlyn Day [00:15:10] Yeah, that's really good.

Early Adulthood and a Broken Engagement

John Dehlin [00:15:14] Just for the timeline's sake, what age did you meet Randy?

Devlyn Day [00:15:19] 23.

John Dehlin [00:15:21] You were 23. Okay. So what'd you do after graduation? Between then and meeting Randy, what'd you do?

Devlyn Day [00:15:27] I went to a small college in Arizona, ea. Eastern Arizona College. I went with.

John Dehlin [00:15:33] Is that in Snowflake? Where is that?

Devlyn Day [00:15:35] That's in Thatcher.

John Dehlin [00:15:36] Thatcher. Thatcher. Okay.

Devlyn Day [00:15:37] Thatcher staff area.

John Dehlin [00:15:38] Okay.

Devlyn Day [00:15:39] So I went with my three best friends. We were roommates. It was kind of. We called it like, mini byu. We lived right next to the institute building. And most of my Teachers were lds. Most of the town is lds, so it kind of continued that experience.

John Dehlin [00:15:58] So that's a. For Arizona. That's like a BYU, Idaho kind of option.

Devlyn Day [00:16:02] Yeah, it's a very tiny town. It's grown a lot since then. Have you heard of that? Are you aware of that?

John Dehlin [00:16:08] Loosely, yeah. Yeah.

Devlyn Day [00:16:11] So had a really great experience there. It was really fun. I enjoyed institute lots of activities, lots of linger longers and devotionals, like socializing

John Dehlin [00:16:30] with other Mormons in college.

Devlyn Day [00:16:34] So during that time, I dated. I didn't date a ton as a teenager because I was not extroverted and I had a lot of extroverted friends. I just didn't date much as a teenager, but I did more in college and really enjoyed that. And I ended up at 19, turning 20. I got engaged and was gonna be married. And two weeks before the wedding, he called it off. And it was pretty devastating.

John Dehlin [00:17:12] Dang.

Devlyn Day [00:17:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:13] So announcements had all been sent out.

Devlyn Day [00:17:15] Yeah, I was like a week away from getting my endowments out.

John Dehlin [00:17:18] Oh, wow.

Devlyn Day [00:17:18] And, yeah, our announcements were sent out. We had to, like, call and tell people not to come. So it was. I think part of it was embarrassing and part of it was devastating because I was like, well, this was my purpose. I was supposed to, like, I met this person, I fell in love. I was supposed to get married and start planning my life so that I would be a complete person, because I'm not complete until I'm married and having kids.

John Dehlin [00:17:44] And did you feel like the Holy Ghost had told you you would get married to him and.

Devlyn Day [00:17:49] Yeah, yeah, I felt. Felt that way. And then, I mean, he kind of, like, hinted that he was being told the opposite, and that's why he called it off. So it was confusing to me because I'm like, how come I'm hearing, you know, one spiritual message and he's hearing a completely different one?

John Dehlin [00:18:08] Plus, that would mean God would be telling him, you're not the right one. That's never gonna feel good.

Devlyn Day [00:18:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:14] What does God know?

Devlyn Day [00:18:15] Yeah. And honestly, looking back then, we didn't know each other that well, and we weren't really a good match. And I think it was very much a good thing we did not get married. I do think he was using the spirit telling him as an excuse for that. I think he was just feeling really uneasy about it. And. But yeah, back then it was pretty confusing for me. And I went into a little bit of a depression afterwards. Kind of like, what do I do now? And again, I had a really good group of girlfriends and kind of Dove into my social life again and I transferred to ASU during that time. I'd finished. The EA is only like a two year college, so I moved back home and transferred to ASU and really enjoyed that experience too.

John Dehlin [00:19:11] Sun Devil.

Devlyn Day [00:19:12] Yep. Yep.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:13] So a quick question about that time with the engagement. Do you remember back then, did you end up creating? Sometimes I think when things happen within a certain context, we can create stories about ourselves or beliefs about ourselves as to sort of try to help us understand the best we can right at the time. But sometimes they're problematic. Did you happen to do that at that time? Like, do you remember how you framed what happened to you with the engagement? And I'm just curious at the time what you told yourself about it.

Devlyn Day [00:19:57] Yeah, I think that's part of what led into a little bit of the depression. I felt like maybe I wasn't like, good enough.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:04] Yes.

Devlyn Day [00:20:05] Yeah. Like, maybe there was something about me that God's like, yeah, you're not ready to be married because you're not good enough. Yeah. I felt that message a lot throughout my life. Like I wasn't ever enough.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:18] Okay. Yeah, absolutely. Can we pause right there and can I ask you about that? Yeah. If you feel comfortable sharing. Where were a couple other places that you felt that was that very early on that you started feeling that way? Did that appear more in the teen years and was it around, like. I'd just like to know a little more about that.

Devlyn Day [00:20:45] I think it started younger than teen years. I don't have a ton of memories, but I think anytime I had struggles with like, social aspects, like friends fitting in, I would feel that like. Or like even in church where people were like really praised for being a certain way and I wasn't that way. I would. I think it was a more internal message, but I think just my environment, that's kind of what I. Yeah. You know, got from it.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:14] Got it.

Devlyn Day [00:21:15] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:16] And did it center more around kind of the social aspect because of the introversion, or is that too much of a generalization? Like, was a lot of it just some of the. What would I say? Like, the valuing of extroversion and being a go getter and kind of the proselyting culture and share your gifts with people, or was it kind of deeper than that? Was it around value? You know, how would you talk about that? Just trying to parse that.

Devlyn Day [00:21:50] I do think a lot of it was just. I was a shyer person. I was like more inside myself. And so I think maybe I didn't feel as noticed not That I wanted to be noticed. Like, I wasn't putting myself out there to be noticed, but I did feel kind of like. Yeah, not as valued.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:14] I think in general, that makes so much sense. Like, you can be shy and quiet and still have a desire to be seen.

Devlyn Day [00:22:23] Yes. Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:24] And to be valued for who you are and what you bring. Yeah.

Devlyn Day [00:22:27] Yeah. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:29] Yeah, that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:22:31] Well, thank you. And thanks for being vulnerable. And I'm guessing this all plays into how your story evolves. So take us up to the point, I guess, where you meet Randy, just in terms of your Mormon journey.

Devlyn Day [00:22:46] Yeah, so I did. After the engagement broke off, I did a lot of dating, a lot of blind dates, a lot of people wanting to set me up with people. Oh, I know a great guy just got back from his mission, or I have a friend of a friend I want to set you up with. And it was all pretty awful. I hated dating. I loved being in a relationship. I hated dating. Again, being shy. It was really hard to be open with new people for me. But my two of my really good friends from high school reached out to me one day and said, we have a guy we really want to set you up with. He worked with one of my friend's husbands, and they said he just got out of, like, a relationship. He was engaged previously. We think you'd really like him. He's a musician. He's in a band. He's artsy like you. And so we should all go out to eat and do this date. And I. I was kind of, like, on the fence because I just had a few really bad dates and I was kind of getting burnt out.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:57] Yeah.

Devlyn Day [00:23:57] But it was with my friends and their husbands who I really liked, and I was like, okay, there'll be a buffer there if I don't like him, so get it.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:04] Yeah.

Devlyn Day [00:24:05] Yeah. So I agreed, and we went on the date, and it was history.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:11] And did you feel something different from the first date? Not like in a. I don't know what you felt, but, like, not necessarily speaking, like, revelatory, but, like, ease or. How would you describe how it was different?

Devlyn Day [00:24:29] It felt pretty low pressure.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:31] Yeah.

Devlyn Day [00:24:32] Because my friends were there. And honestly, he didn't talk to me a whole lot. He talked to the husbands quite a bit. They hit it. He the one husband he knew from work, and they were already friends. And the other husband he hit it off with right away, and they were kind of, like, goofing and having a really good time. My girlfriends were there. I felt at ease. Yeah. We chatted a bit but not a lot. But I enjoy. I thought I liked his personality. It's like almost like I got to observe him without feeling like I had to perform. And he did ask for my number that night and immediately text me. And we started kind of chatting just through text a lot. We didn't hang out again for a couple weeks, so I felt like we kind of eased into the relationship. It took a little bit.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:28] Nice fun. That's great.

John Dehlin [00:25:31] Well, that's a great segue to hear a little bit about Randy's background. Any other thing you want to say about your Mormon spiritual faith journey? Were you just true blue orthodox Mormon up until meeting Randy, or did that. Did the. The first engagement being canceled shake your faith in material ways, or did you not even absorb that much? How was your faith and religiosity at the point you meet Randy?

Devlyn Day [00:26:03] I guess I would say it was really strong. I don't think I really had a whole lot of. I mean, I had things probably on the shelf, but they were not in my direct consciousness. Like, I would say I was pretty solid.

John Dehlin [00:26:22] Okay.

Devlyn Day [00:26:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:23] Beautiful. All right, thanks for sharing. This is fun. All right, well, Randy, let's back up. Where does your Mormon story begin?

Randy's Mormon Upbringing and Pioneer Heritage

Randy Day [00:26:33] Well, both my parents were born and raised Mormon pioneer. I had. See, my great, great great grandpa was in the Mormon Battalion. He played flute, and so I always thought that was really cool. I didn't really quite know what that meant, but because he played the flute and I'm a musician, I'm always like, well, that's where I got my. My musical was from my great great grandpa who was in the Mormon Battalion. So I always thought that was really cool growing up. Yeah, my dad was from Idaho. My mom's from Utah. They met at BYU and then they settled in Arizona. And I have six siblings. And so big, big Mormon family. And I was raised in Gilbert. And so we were. I knew we were very Mormon. We were orthodox Mormon. As time went on, I realized my family might have been a little more orthodox than others, but I took that as a good thing. I'm like, okay, there's good Mormons and then there's really good Mormons, and that's us. That's my family.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:45] That was the days, and that would be me.

Randy Day [00:27:50] And so, yeah, I had a really good child upbringing in the church. I love the church. You know, I was excited to be baptized at 8. I did. I did have a stutter growing up. And so there's times throughout my childhood where that would kind of bum me out. But then my mom would just encourage me. She'd always tell me like, hey, like, Moses wasn't a great speaker. You know, he had, you know, someone that, you know, helped talk to him and speak for him. And so I always thought that was really cool. I'm like, okay. Although sometimes I can't. I can't say what I want to at the moment. But you know, my mom would always just build me up how grave a person I was and.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:31] Oh, that's very sweet.

Randy Day [00:28:32] Yeah. And so there's times when, as a teenager when I'm blessing the sacrament and I couldn't even get through the sacrament prayers. But again then my mom was just like, hey, like, you're doing what you should be doing. God's going to bless you. And so just always a lot of encouragement regarding that aspect. But yeah, I did it all. I went to Mutual Eagle Scout.

John Dehlin [00:29:05] Yeah. You love primary songs, right? And church music?

Randy Day [00:29:08] Oh, yes. Yeah. Our Sundays were very. We couldn't listen to, you know, anything not church related. So music was always on in my house and so I love that aspect of it. So always listening to, you know, Mormon Tagnacle choir or the Joseph Technical Dream Coat or the New Testament soundtrack or Afterglow. Yes. Yep. That song was always. Every Sunday. I just have memory of always listening to Afterglow. When we come home from church, my parents would be making dinner and we'd be listening after Glow. And so I just very.

John Dehlin [00:29:46] I heard him come.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:48] Oh goodness.

Randy Day [00:29:50] And he said, nations fall behind him. The rivers crawl to find him. Mountains move.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:03] We could all.

John Dehlin [00:30:04] Yeah, all day.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:06] Yes. I'm curious for music, do you have a. Was that something that you remember young, kind of in your young years, playing it as opposed to listening? Where did that love kind of come from?

Randy Day [00:30:24] Yeah, so we always had music on. I was raised in like 90s country. Loved it. And then in sixth grade there was a talent show and there's a band that played and they played Brains do by Green Day. And just watching them perform live, I was like, whoa, I want to do that. And that was like the first time, like just seeing music live. And that's from that point my brother had a guitar and I would go and I'd go in his room and play the guitar and I didn't know what I was doing. And eventually my mom got me guitar lessons and from there I just kind of taught myself and just have always enjoyed music. I've always just got friends together and played in bands. And so I've been playing in bands since I was like 13 or 14. Years old.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:16] Fun.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:16] That's really fun.

John Dehlin [00:31:17] And you were born on April 6, which is a very Mormon date.

Randy Day [00:31:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:31:22] Tell our audience who's Never Mormon, why April 6th is an important date.

Randy Day [00:31:26] So Mormon Jesus, that's his birthday. We were told by Joseph Smith, Jesus was born on April 6. So that was always a big thing that I share a birthday with Jesus. That was amazing. And then also the church restoration on April 6.

John Dehlin [00:31:42] That's when the church was founded.

Randy Day [00:31:44] Yeah. And so just, you know, again, I just was. You know, my parents would always just build me up, how awesome I was. I was a great son, had great birthday, and I just had all this. I had some, you know, just great ties with the Mormon Church.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:02] Yeah, I can see the. What extra depth of identity with your. The tie to music, you having that in your family line. And then the. I can see it adding kind of a bit more meaning to your identity that way.

Randy Day [00:32:20] Yeah, Yeah. I think that was a big identity. And it's, you know, of course, music. But then if there was music that was not appropriate, I would. Oh, I'm not gonna listen to that. You know, if there was any music that was vulgar, I wouldn't listen to that. Cause I don't want to drive the spirit away. But I loved music. And so I'd definitely made that a very important passion because my family's. And my parents or my dad and brothers play sports. I played until I was kind of got into music, but I wasn't very good at sports. And so I was good at music. And so I just kind of started getting into music and just found that passion. And I remember went to a concert one night, and there's one band that came on, and I just. I felt the spirit leave. I'm like, oh, this is kind of dark. And the next day I was getting my patriarchal blessing. So I'm like, you know what? I want to be worthy to make sure I'm in intuition with the spirit. And so I'm going to leave so I can be prepared for my patriarchal blessing tomorrow. So I left, I came, I went with friends, and I just. I walked home.

John Dehlin [00:33:25] I was that kind of Mormon. What was the band in the song? Do you remember?

Randy Day [00:33:28] I don't. It was just a bunch of local bands playing.

John Dehlin [00:33:31] Okay. Okay.

Randy Day [00:33:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:33] Well, I'm already noticing, like, scrupulosity or religious OCD emerges as a theme. And like, the stuttering suggests possibly anxiety or kind of an anxiety. Higher levels of anxiety, potentially. So kind of a combination of higher anxiety with high religious orthodoxy and Obedience and observance feels just like a recipe for scrupulosity, because they say OCD attacks what you care most about. And so if religion becomes what you care most about, then if you have anxiety or even ocd, that's where it is likely to manifest. So.

Randy Day [00:34:15] Yeah, and I didn't consider myself anxious, like, anxious child. And, you know, if anything happened or, you know, we didn't really talk about things was more like, hey, have a positive attitude. Everything's going to turn out good. You know, you're going to be blessed. And so we didn't really talk much about things like that. And so.

John Dehlin [00:34:35] Sure.

Randy Day [00:34:35] Yeah. So that definitely started young.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:39] Got it. Wait, so when you say you didn't talk about things like that, you mean talking about hard things, emotion, like more difficult emotions? Is that what you mean? It was pretty much more positive emotion focused.

Randy Day [00:34:52] Correct. Yeah. So if anything, like, happened, that would have been, like, a hard conversation. We just didn't really discuss, like, our deep thoughts or emotions. It was just very surface level conversations. Growing up, my family.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:08] Yeah, got it.

Devlyn Day [00:35:09] Yep.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:10] Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:35:11] So your. Your adolescence through high school, anything, Was it like the idyllic Mormon upbringing? Were there any glitches or stumbles along the way?

Randy Day [00:35:23] No. I mean, nothing major. I consider myself very Peter Priesthood, Very, very straight arrow. When my friends, you know, a new group of friends, if they want to do something a little more crossing the line, I'd be like, guys, we shouldn't be doing that. I was that. That person that'd be like, you know, we should leave or we should not be watching this.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:46] Mm.

Randy Day [00:35:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:47] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:48] At this stage, as a teen, was there any, you know, what would I say? And I don't even know at this point if you would talk about it as OCD or more that you're being just kind of careful. Right. How would you talk about it? Cause that'll. Would you talk about it as OCD at this point or not yet?

Randy Day [00:36:12] No, not at all.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:13] Okay.

Randy Day [00:36:14] To me, it was. It was. If I'm being feeling that way, the spirit's telling me, like, hey, we shouldn't be doing this. So I wanted to be righteous. I wanted to be obedient. So I just took that as I was just doing the right thing. I probably didn't even know what OCD was at the time.

John Dehlin [00:36:31] Sure. Of course.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:32] Did you have a sense, I guess, of inner torment? That's what I'm trying to get at that. Were you having an internal experience that was in direct juxtaposition with the positive emotions that were expected on the outside

John Dehlin [00:36:48] and usually manifests as worthiness.

Randy Day [00:36:50] Yeah. So I didn't. Didn't connect the dots at that point. It was very rainbows and sunshine as a youth. It was just. Yeah, no, I just. I took it as a sign of worthiness and it didn't bother me. I just wanted to make sure I was doing the right thing. So it wasn't anything that I even would relate to or even think about at that point.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:15] Consciously. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I wanted to do just a quick, like, exercise that we did with Devlin. I'm just curious with young men's, what messages you absorbed in young men's and if you felt like a good fit there or if you differentiated.

Randy's Mission and Young Men's Experience

Randy Day [00:37:34] Yeah, I. The messages were very much, stay worthy so you can hold the priesthood. And then with that, you're going to. Then prepare to go on mission. So it was very. Just, you know, always be obedient, do what you're doing. And I felt like it was something I wanted. I strived to be obedient. I wanted to always do what was right. The first time I ever, like, made a mistake where I told my parents, like, what happened? And, you know, my mom was like, oh, well, you need to talk to the bishop. And so after that experience, after talking to the bishop, how happy I felt afterwards, because up to that point I just felt like just so, like, just horrible inside. But then after that experience, I learned like, oh, like, hey, when I mess up, I can go talk to my bishop and everything will be fine. You know, God will. Well, look at me. Even better because I'm going through the repentance process.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:40] So by the time you graduate, I'm assuming seminary graduate, you know, preparing for a mission, all the things.

Randy Day [00:38:47] Yep. Yeah. No, I'd say yeah. At that point I was just. Life was easy, life was good. I didn't have any major issues or, you know, I loved the church. I loved being lds. I loved sharing my testimony with others because I played in music. I played with a lot of non member friends. And so every time we'd play shows, everyone would be like, wearing black shirts and pants except me. I'd be wearing a red shirt or I always stood out. And I took that as a good thing. I wanted to be an example. Like, I'm different, but Mormonism made you

John Dehlin [00:39:24] different in a good way.

Randy Day [00:39:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I absolutely loved it.

John Dehlin [00:39:28] Was it show choir stuff or.

Randy Day [00:39:30] No, band. Like rock music.

John Dehlin [00:39:32] Oh, bands. Yeah. What instrument?

Randy Day [00:39:35] Again, I played guitar.

John Dehlin [00:39:36] Okay.

Randy Day [00:39:37] Lead or mainly rhythm and sang.

John Dehlin [00:39:41] So what cover songs did y' all Do. What were your biggest cover songs?

Randy Day [00:39:45] Weezer was a big influence on my music. Death cap for acuity.

John Dehlin [00:39:50] 90s early 90s music.

Randy Day [00:39:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:52] Okay.

Randy Day [00:39:53] That's fun. My brothers were older. They listened to like ska music. So I got into ska at a young age. Like Aquabats and Les and Jake. Real big fish. So music. Yeah, a young age I loved. My first concert was supposed to be Aquabats when I was 12, but then I got sick and so my brother went without me, but he came and brought me a home a shirt. That was awesome. Yeah. So I just love the rock music. My first concert, then went to was. It was Dashboard. He opened up for Melancholin and so, yeah, just punk music.

John Dehlin [00:40:28] Fun, fun. Okay. So would you. Anything else before we go to like after. After high school?

Randy Day [00:40:37] No, just. Yeah, after high school. Then I had a year gap and so all my friends went to BYU during that year gap. But I. I stayed home and I just worked for a year to save money to. So I can pay for my mission, you know, so I wanted to. That was the goal minded be able to say that I paid for my mission. So I worked hard during that. That year.

John Dehlin [00:40:59] Did you apply to go to the mission?

Randy Day [00:41:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:03] Where'd you go?

Randy Day [00:41:04] I went to Florida.

Devlyn Day [00:41:05] Okay.

Randy Day [00:41:05] It was Orlando, Florida. Oh, so it was the house.

John Dehlin [00:41:08] It's like the Book of Mormon musical.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:09] You could really sing that song too.

John Dehlin [00:41:10] Orlando.

Randy Day [00:41:13] Yep. So it was the happiest mission on earth, you know, it was great.

John Dehlin [00:41:19] And how was your mission overall? It was good.

Randy Day [00:41:22] Again, mainly great experiences. A lot of testimony builders to stay on the mission. You know, there's a lot of. A lot of people would bring things up and just anti things. And so I hear all these different things about Joseph Smith or about church history, and I didn't let it bother me. I was like, well, obviously I know the truth. I'm a missionary. I'm 19 years old. I know what I'm talking about.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:48] You're like, it's so stupid sad. You're misinformed.

Randy Day [00:41:50] Yes, exactly. And so, yeah, overall it was definitely something I loved. Met a lot of good people. I'm still friends with a lot of my companions and overall it was a good experience.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:05] Nice.

How Devlyn and Randy Met

John Dehlin [00:42:06] So you come back from your mission and did you go to asu? Did you go to Eastern? How'd you all meet?

Randy Day [00:42:13] Yeah. So Dev talked about the blind date. So I worked with a friend and he's the one that set me up and same thing. I was dating girls off and on. And then he's like, Hey, I have this friend I went to high school with. She's friends with my wife, and we should go on a blind date. And so I'm like, okay. And so, yeah, we went on the blind date, and then we text for a few weeks, and then after that, then we started hanging out, and we hung out probably every day till we got engaged and got married.

John Dehlin [00:42:50] So what year was that you were dating and getting engaged?

Randy Day [00:42:53] Yeah, so we met in 2010.

John Dehlin [00:42:55] 2010.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:57] And how soon was that after you coming back from a mission that you.

Randy Day [00:43:02] I got home 2008. So I was home for a couple years, dating, and.

Devlyn Day [00:43:07] Well, you got engaged also.

Randy Day [00:43:08] Oh, that's right. Yeah, I was engaged as well.

John Dehlin [00:43:10] Did you call off the engagement? Oh, she did.

Devlyn Day [00:43:13] That was our trauma bond.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:15] Trauma bonded between.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:17] Between. Honestly. Yeah, it is.

Devlyn Day [00:43:20] Yeah.

Randy Day [00:43:20] Once we both found out we were both engaged, like, oh, you left too. That's awesome.

John Dehlin [00:43:27] That's awesome. Okay, so we're talking 2008, 2010 timeframe. Yes.

Randy Day [00:43:32] We met in 2010. Was our blind date.

John Dehlin [00:43:34] Okay. Okay.

Randy Day [00:43:35] In July.

John Dehlin [00:43:35] Okay.

Randy Day [00:43:36] And then by December, she pretty much gave me the ultimatum.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:43] What did that look like?

John Dehlin [00:43:46] Poop or get off the pot?

Devlyn Day [00:43:47] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:49] Well, John, is there a better way to say that?

Devlyn Day [00:43:52] A little more elegantly said, but yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:58] Okay. Yeah.

Randy Day [00:43:59] So it was, you know, you know, we're getting serious. We need to either get married before we mess up or we need to stop dating. So I had to go pray about it. So I prayed about it, and then I went and talked to my bishop, I think, a couple times about it, because I really liked Devlin. But I told myself after my engagement, I'm like, I'm gonna date someone for a year before I, like, get serious with that person. And so it wasn't a year yet. And so I was very, like, hesitant to, you know, continue dating, get married. So after prayer and going to temple and talking to my bishop, I was like, okay, she's the one.

Devlyn Day [00:44:41] Well, there's one other thing. He wasn't getting, like, a lightning bolt answer. He was waiting for God to, like, send an angel and tell him he should marry me. And I kept telling him, like, sometimes you just have to make a choice and wait to be stopped. Like, if you desire, I want to know if you want to marry me. Like, do you desire to marry me?

Margi Dehlin [00:45:02] Yeah.

Devlyn Day [00:45:03] So it was a little hard for him to get past, like, not getting, like, a big spiritual experience, telling him he was supposed to marry me.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:11] That's right.

Devlyn Day [00:45:12] Yeah.

Randy Day [00:45:12] But my bishop was. He was a great person, and so he, I think, kind of saw, like, he knew I really liked her, and he's like, well, you know, sounds like you really like her, and sounds like things are working out. So it sounds like you should marry her. And I think that was just the confirmation. I'm like, oh, you're right. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:30] Isn't that so relatable, though, within Mormonism? Because I do feel like they're in the conditioning and the messaging. There's so much like, well, I can't make decisions for myself. I am looking to some, like you said, either a message from God, some or my bishop. But, like, this is clearly, like, I don't make decisions by myself. I am not to be trusted. Yeah.

Randy Day [00:45:55] And I learned that early on. Just, I was a people pleaser. I didn't want to, you know, if I was asked, oh, what do you want to do? I'd be like, oh, whatever you want to do. Like, at a young age, I just always did. I wanted to make other people happy. Like, so whatever, you know, you want to do. So, yeah, I definitely didn't make my own decisions. It was very went with the flow, you know.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:16] So did you get your witness or what happened?

Randy Day [00:46:19] After meeting my bishop then I just. It just felt right after that.

John Dehlin [00:46:22] Okay.

Devlyn Day [00:46:23] And you also talked to some friends and your mom, too?

Margi Dehlin [00:46:27] Yeah, that external going to other, which is so, like, relatable, which.

Randy Day [00:46:35] Yeah, the conversation for my mom was huge. I respect my parents. My mom just, you know, she really liked Devlin from the start. And so I'm like, okay, everyone likes her. This is good.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:47] I think it's such an interesting touch point for also when people start transitioning, because you hear over and over again, people like, I don't know what I want. I have no idea for the most basic things. And I think this is just a wonderful illustration of, like, why. It's because we're always looking to other people and we don't have that practice of like or even inner knowing at all of what our preferences might be or what we want. Right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:15] So we, I think, all of us in. At some point in our Mormon Sunday School experiences, we're asked to fill out a checklist of our perfect Mormon future spouse. So I'll ask you both this question. So for you, Randy, Devlin, met your criteria for your Mormon wife, because what. Tell me the items on the list.

Randy Day [00:47:39] Yeah, I mean, the main thing was, you know, a worthy person who'd go to the temple, had a strong testimony, and she met both of those, and there were two that she didn't Meet, which was she didn't play the piano. In my mind, I was gonna have a wife that played hymns during the week in our. My home. I know. And then a returned missionary. I thought I was gonna marry returned missionary. So there are two things that she did.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:04] I'm feeling free over there with the feeling worthy or feeling like you're meeting criteria. It's hurting my heart a little.

Devlyn Day [00:48:11] I did do mission prep, and I considered going on a mission before my first engagement, but then I just knew myself, and I was like, I am too introverted to do a mission. So he was okay with that.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:24] Hey, that's an inner knowing. Let's celebrate that. A little connection with yourself.

Randy Day [00:48:29] She hit the other marks in the list, read her scriptures, prayed every day,

Devlyn Day [00:48:34] went to the temple.

Randy Day [00:48:36] So I figured, those are good enough. I'm gonna let the other two slide.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:40] So were all of the things church related?

John Dehlin [00:48:43] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:44] Wow.

Randy Day [00:48:45] I mean, I did look at the movie.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:48] Well, this explains. This explains the later. Honestly. How?

John Dehlin [00:48:53] Well, maybe.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:54] Are you asking if he thought she was attractive or, like, smart or best friend?

Margi Dehlin [00:48:59] I was asking if there were. Yes. If there were other things around, like college educated or if there were any things off, like, on his list that weren't, you know, absolutely. Church kind of tags.

John Dehlin [00:49:11] And I would add cute or smart or a close friend or things like that.

Randy Day [00:49:15] Attractive. And then also because she loved music too, so I was more into, like, modern 90s, 2000s music. She loved classic rock, which my parents loved. Classic rock.

John Dehlin [00:49:26] Wait, name five bands.

Devlyn Day [00:49:28] Rolling Stones, Lynyrd, Skynyrd, Eric Clapton. I mean, pretty much anything. Like 60s, 70s, 80s. Like, I listened a lot in my art classes in high school. A lot of my teachers were older dudes who would play classic rock and Freebird. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I loved. I loved classic rock. I loved all music, but that, like, is what I kind of like. I don't know. In high school, I really glommed on to, like, classic rock, and I felt cool and artsy because I listened to a variety. And I listened to, like, music from our, like, high school experience too. So we. I knew a lot of the bands he loved, and.

John Dehlin [00:50:13] Well, now I really like you guys because classic rock is my.

Devlyn Day [00:50:16] Also listened to rap, which he did not.

John Dehlin [00:50:18] Oh, okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:19] Maybe didn't feel too soft.

Devlyn Day [00:50:21] Yeah. He was like, that's a little.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:23] Not me.

John Dehlin [00:50:23] That's a little too inappropriate.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:25] Okay. So her music tastes.

Randy Day [00:50:28] Yeah. In fact, the first time she came to my house to meet my parents, she was wearing a Rolling Stones T shirt. My dad loves Rolling Stones. And after she left, he's like, I like her.

John Dehlin [00:50:37] What is our favorite Rolling Stone song?

Devlyn Day [00:50:40] Oh, gosh.

John Dehlin [00:50:43] Honky Tonk Woman. Sympathy for the Devil.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:47] No.

Devlyn Day [00:50:49] Yeah. I don't know. I love it all. Like, just anything. Honestly, I don't have a favorite. I have a hard time picking favorites of anything.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:57] Yeah, yeah, I hear that.

John Dehlin [00:50:59] Okay, so music tastes cute. All right. That's how she met your list.

Randy Day [00:51:06] Spiritual.

John Dehlin [00:51:07] Yep. Okay, and how did he meet your criteria?

Devlyn Day [00:51:10] Yeah, number one, he returned missionary. That was always at the top of the list in young women's everything. He was just such a good guy. Like everyone I met of his friends, people that knew him, just had such high regards for him. And I always wanted to date someone who just was overall a good person. Right. Other things on my list. So me and my good friends in college, when we were rooming together, we made a pact that we wouldn't watch our raid rated movies. We had watched them in high school, but we decided we were gonna together not watch our rated movies in college. So if we got invited out with anyone, we would all leave together. And after college, I continued that and just decided not to watch those movies. And when we started dating, our friends were talking about some movies. I think it was Stepbrothers. And he was like, oh, I've never seen that. I don't watch our rated movies. And I was like, oh, my goodness. Like, every guy I dated watched R rated movies. So I was like. He was like one of the few guys that didn't. And so that checked a big mark off my list.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:21] And it was rarer.

Devlyn Day [00:52:23] Yes, it was really hard because even the good return missionary boys were watching R rated movies.

John Dehlin [00:52:29] How do those Mormon boys not get the memo? You and I knew you weren't supposed to see our movies. I know.

Devlyn Day [00:52:37] Yeah, he didn't curse, although I did. But I found it very, like, endearing that he didn't.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:48] You know, it's so interesting. Part of why I bring all this up is just because we're so list oriented and criteria oriented. But one thing I don't know that we always think about is like, are we like best friends? Do we communicate well? Are we emotionally intimate and vulnerable with each other? And. And that's almost never on any Mormon's list. You know what I mean?

Devlyn Day [00:53:10] Yeah, no, like, the other thing, one of the big things on the list too. He went to the temple weekly. And I also, I wasn't endowed yet, but I would go do baptisms weekly. And so I was like, oh, that's really good. But the friendship aspect actually was really big for me. And there was one night when we, at the very beginning, like, I don't think we were even boyfriend and girlfriend yet. We'd gone out on a date and we drove back to his house and we were sitting in the car and we Talked till like 2 in the morning. And I remember thinking, I feel like I've known him forever. Like, there was such ease talking to him. It felt so like we had been doing it forever. Not that we'd only known each other for a couple weeks. And so that was huge for me. It wasn't necessarily emphasized in any church lessons. It was kind of, any two good people can make a marriage work. But I definitely knew I wanted someone who I had a friendship with and that we could get each other. Like, our humor was very similar. And so those were, they weren't necessarily my church checklist, but like what I personally wanted.

Courtship, Marriage, and Planning a Family

Margi Dehlin [00:54:21] I'm curious if you had any conversations before you were married and if it was on your list around having children. Like, were you, Randy, were you on your list, cognizant of like, oh, would she be a good mother? Does she want to have children? And you also Devlin the same that way? I'm just curious if that or if it was assumed or. Yeah. Talk about that.

Randy Day [00:54:47] Yeah, I mean, I think it was definitely talked about that I would have, you know, I don't know, maybe. I don't know talked about, but maybe it was just assumed, but it was very. That I would have the career and she would be the mom. I mean, she did speak a lot about having kids. So I think maybe there was a conversation, but I think we're on the same track that I was gonna be the breadwinner and she'd be the stay home mom with our kids. And I had seven. There were seven kids. And so I was raised in a big family and so I loved that. And so I wanted to have a big family. And then once we were engaged and we talked about it, you know, we were like, oh, maybe like four or five kids. It's kind of what we, we talked about.

John Dehlin [00:55:33] Yeah. Beautiful. All right. So you get married in 201111 Mesa Temple.

Devlyn Day [00:55:44] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:55:45] That makes sense.

Devlyn Day [00:55:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:47] Should we talk about. I think in your outline, your temple experience was kind of important. Anything about your dating up to marriage that might play in later to your, your faith journeys or was it pretty? Or like, did you, what did you both envision your lives would be like? Did you both have a shared vision for how your lives would play out as a married couple. And if so, what?

Margi Dehlin [00:56:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:15] How would you both paint the vision of how your life was gonna play out once you got married?

Margi Dehlin [00:56:21] That's good, babe. Yeah.

Devlyn Day [00:56:23] I mean, definitely. We were like gonna live the Mormon dream. Like, we were gonna get married. We were gonna wait two years, although we disagreed on what two years actually meant. We were gonna wait two years to have kids. I was gonna be the stay at home mom. We were gonna raise our kids how we were raised. I would say, like, my family wasn't maybe as intense as his family, Mormon wise, but we agreed really on big points for everything. We were gonna serve a mission when we were older, when our kids were leaving the nest, we wanted to serve like a couple mission.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:05] Yeah.

Devlyn Day [00:57:07] So I think we pretty much shared the same vision for life. The temple was. He had obviously already been through for his endowments before his mission. I just missed getting my endowments out with my first engagement and they told me I couldn't still get my endowments out until I was engaged again. So I had not had that experience until after we were engaged and it was different.

John Dehlin [00:57:39] Anything you want to add?

Randy Day [00:57:41] No, I think, yeah, I think we're both on the same page. It was going to be, you know, very Mormon, Very Mormon home with, you know, continuing the checklist and raising our kids and, you know, make sure they're taught. And I'd be a worthy priesthood holder to serve over my family.

John Dehlin [00:57:59] And your eternal vision would be what? What would happen through the eternities forever?

Devlyn Day [00:58:05] What Celestial kingdom with each other and all our kids.

John Dehlin [00:58:10] Right.

Devlyn Day [00:58:11] Yeah. Everyone at the table and no empty chairs? No empty chairs.

John Dehlin [00:58:15] And Mormon celestial kingdom. Exaltation.

Devlyn Day [00:58:17] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:58:18] Right.

Devlyn Day [00:58:18] That was the goal.

John Dehlin [00:58:19] That was the goal.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:21] It seemed in that moment achievable.

Devlyn Day [00:58:23] Very achievable. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:24] Yeah.

Devlyn Day [00:58:25] We were it.

John Dehlin [00:58:27] In it to win it.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:28] Yeah.

Temple Experience and Early Married Life

John Dehlin [00:58:28] Okay. So do you want to talk about going to the temple? Is that an important part for you?

Devlyn Day [00:58:35] Yeah, I think it's pretty important for me. I was always just highly anxious about all these kinds of things, like, especially if I didn't know what I was getting into. Like, I was the kind of kid that my mom had to kind of like walk me through what was going to happen when I was going through a new experience because I would get very in my head and anxious. So the temple was like this big secret, but also something everyone always talked about how wonderful it was. I had quite a few of my friends were married before me. Most of my friends were all married before me. I was kind of old at 24, getting married. So, you know, I'd heard, like, bits and pieces, but no one was really direct or giving me any details. A lot of the. It's weird, but the more you go, you'll get used to it. Yeah, just a lot of, like, go often and you'll love it. And my mom had even said at one point. So she was going through breast cancer during our dating engagement when we were first married. And I guess they had recently changed the initiatory. She had said something kind of briefly of like. I didn't used to like the initiatory as much, but. But since they've changed it, I really love it. It's my favorite part. So I kind of, like, was looking forward to that, and I did enjoy that part of it. But I do remember feeling very nervous, not knowing what I was going to be doing and feeling this sense of dread that I would be trapped into doing something I didn't necessarily want to do, but feeling like I couldn't say no. Yeah. So I remember the experience felt kind of out of body. I remember, like, when they said, like, if you want to leave, leave now. And I'm like, I don't even know what I'm getting into, like. But I kind of felt like I want to get up and leave, but my family's there, he's there, his family's there. Friends, people in the ward are there. So it's like, even. Yeah, my grandpa was the officiator, so it just kind of felt like a lot of pressure.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:56] Right. And how would someone leave in this situation? How would one leave?

Devlyn Day [01:01:00] I just remember, like, being so afraid I'd, like, forget my name. They gave me, like.

John Dehlin [01:01:06] Yeah.

Devlyn Day [01:01:06] I just remember feeling really overwhelmed. And then I remember, like, overall, the movie part of it. I was like, okay, this isn't bad. This is, like. Feels familiar. It's the story of Adam and Eve and the creation. Like, that felt very familiar. And I was like, that's okay. I feel pretty good doing all the signs and the tokens and things. I. I think I was just so overwhelmed by it. I wasn't really, like, paying attention to it. It just. I was, like, going through the motions. And then it got to the prayer circle, and I remember just getting this pit in my stomach and thinking, oh, this is why people say we're in a cult. I just remember thinking, this is really

John Dehlin [01:01:54] weird because everyone's standing in a circle in the robes.

Devlyn Day [01:01:59] We had veiled face.

John Dehlin [01:02:00] Women's faces are veiled. Your arms are kind of in the handshake, but also in the square. Masonic stuff. And then you're chanting.

Devlyn Day [01:02:10] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:02:11] And it does feel cult like.

Devlyn Day [01:02:12] Yeah. Also get very claustrophobic easily. I don't like small spaces. I don't feel, like, feeling trapped. And just all the clothes on me and the veil over my face and, like, under my chin. I remember just feeling like I was, like, crawling out of my skin and. But I had to look happy. And I just remember, like, looking over him and he's just smiling like, how you doing? And I'm like, great.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:37] Be better.

Devlyn Day [01:02:38] Yes. And then going through the veil, I remember being very. My grandpa was the one who took me through the veil because we did my endowment, like, two months or three months before we actually got married. And I guess they won't let your spouse take you through the veil until it's like, at least a week before the wedding. Because I guess if something happens, you don't get married. They don't want them knowing your name. So my grandpa was actually the one who originally. So that was neat. But. But I remember being anxious, like, well, if I don't know what to say, and my mom's like, don't worry. There's a lady there. She'll help you say all the things to get through the veil. So I remember getting through and just feeling relieved that it was done and going into the celestial room, and all my family's there, and everyone's just like, how was it? And I'm like, it was good. And I do remember thinking at the time, like, that could have been worse. Like, I think I built it up to be worse. And I remember just convincing myself that, like, it's because I'm anxious and it was new and I wasn't used to it. And as soon as I got used to would. I would love it. And he wanted to go back two days later, just us. And I was so scared, and he convinced me it would be okay. I think we got asked to be the Witness couple that second time. And I just remember being like, I hate this. But I couldn't tell him that. Like, I would never tell him that I didn't enjoy it because he loved it so much. And I. What was I gonna do? Not marry him? Like, I loved him. So I just remember being like, all right, this is just what we do.

John Dehlin [01:04:21] Part of the backstory that never Mormons need to know is that when Joseph Smith was living in Nauvoo, Illinois, he. He joined the Masonic Lodge. And so he learned all these Masonic ritual acts as part of his being a Mason. So then when he created the Mormon Endowment Temple ceremony. He just imported a lot of those Masonic rituals into the Mormon Endowment ceremony. And those persisted for a long, long time. They were actually a lot worse than what y' all went through when I went through back in the late 1980s. And then. But then also, even though the temple ceremony has gotten less Masonic and thus less culty over the past 30 or 40 years, that's caused people to ask, why is it being changed? If it was revelation from God, why did God put weird stuff in, weird Masonic stuff in? But then why wasn't it just standard from start to finish? Is the church changing for social reasons or pressure? And just. We've covered many, many times in Mormon stories how many, many people just had a bad experience and never wanted to go back or were disturbed by it. And so this is just one of the most common stories. So it certainly affected you guys.

Devlyn Day [01:05:40] And for me, the answer was just, go more, go more. And so we went weekly together. Like, from the time I got endowed till, I mean, pretty far along in my pregnancy with my first child, we went weekly. Like, if we were on vacation, if we were, like, we went. I don't think we hardly ever missed a week.

Randy Day [01:06:02] I don't think we did.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:03] So what was your experience with practicing going more and it will feel better? Did it feel better?

Devlyn Day [01:06:10] I think because it became. Familiar. I was able to kind of, like, push through the feelings of discomfort more and kind of just like almost robotic going through the motions. I found peace in there, like, in the dark when the movie was playing. I didn't really wouldn't pay attention much to the movie. I would just kind of go through, like, almost like a meditation of sorts of, like, finding that time to use to really, like, dig into how I was feeling that week and try to connect spiritually. And so I think I found ways to use going to the temple as a tool to feel spiritual. And I just kind of didn't think about it too much. The veil always felt claustrophobic. The clothing always felt claustrophobic. That never went away. I remember I would go into the dressing room and immediately be, like, taking things off as quickly as I could, like, just wanting it all off of me. So that never really changed. And yeah, like, I think it was just a familiarity. I do remember there were a couple times, like, we went on anniversary trip to Snowflake, and I thought he had packed my temple bag because I think we discussed it and I thought he grabbed it. He thought I grabbed. Was forgotten. We get up to our. Our little bread and breakfast there. And we're gonna go to the temple. And we realize we don't have my bag. And we called the Snowflake Temple to see if they did rentals and they don't. They're so small. Yeah. And so we decided, well, we'll do initiatories because we don't. I don't need it for that. And I remember kind of feeling disappointed. I was kind of like excited to not go, but then I felt bad for filling that. So we did end up going and doing initiatories. But yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:16] I mean, y' all were in that way more devout than me and Margi because basically after our temple marriage, Margi, you never wanted to go back to the temple? Is that true?

Margi Dehlin [01:08:27] That is true.

Randy Day [01:08:28] I feel it.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:29] She was just like, I'm a nope for the temple. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, it wasn't until my

Devlyn Day [01:08:38] pregnancy where I started feeling even more physical discomfort and like, not. It's a long session to sit through when you have a baby pushing against your bladder. And so that's when we got a little more lax with our attendance to the temple.

John Dehlin [01:08:52] Yeah, life gets busy. Okay, so you got temple married in Mesa and 2010. Is that what you said?

Devlyn Day [01:09:01] 2011.

John Dehlin [01:09:02] 2011. Okay, okay, okay. And so, yeah, how did your Mormon dream progress at that point? And when did the cracks start emerging?

Devlyn Day [01:09:14] So about a year into marriage, I said, all right, let's start talking about kids. And he was like, we're not having kids for two years. I go, yeah, it takes nine months. So we're at a year. We gotta start trying and planning. And at the time, my job was the one that was providing more money and insurance, health insurance, and his job. I don't even think you had a full 40 hours or maybe like, you just didn't always work a full 40 hours. His job was way more lax than mine. He could come home early, or if they weren't busy, they'd send him home early. So sometimes he wasn't even getting a full 40 hours. And I don't think you had help benefit through them. And so he was kind of like, how are we going to do that? Like, you're going to want to be a stay at home mom, you're not going to want to work. And he, he just was like, I think not ready. And I was very much like, this is the next step. So my ideas were having a baby at two years. His ideas, we're talking about having a baby at two years. Right. So there was a little Bit of like, like, huh, you know. And I pressured him again. I was like, you need to start praying about this. You need to go to the temple. And he's, he was like, well, if we have a baby and we don't have health insurance and we can't provide, you're going to feel so guilty and like, God will provide. I was like, you can't just. You have to trust, you have to have faith. You just have to. This is what we're supposed to do. Like if we're supposed to get pregnant, have a baby, like, it'll help, it'll work out. And so I think after like a couple months of me like pushing, he was like, all right, we can, we can have kids. So we got pregnant pretty much right away. So. And we had her. Our anniversary was in April and we had her in July right after our second anniversary. So we hit that two year mark that we were planning.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:16] So you're on plan.

John Dehlin [01:11:18] And it said, I think the outline said you had three kids in four years.

Devlyn Day [01:11:22] Is that right? Yeah, yeah. So it was about the time I had our oldest was, I think she was like seven, eight months old. I was on birth control. I was nursing and I was five pounds away from my pre baby weight. I was so excited. And we found out we were pregnant again and we were not planning that pregnancy. It just, just like our middle child always does. She comes when she wants, she does what she wants. She's a big surprise. She's very fun. I remember being terrified cause I was like, I want more kids. But I had a baby still. I was nursing still.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:05] Oh, for sure.

Devlyn Day [01:12:08] And you know, we did the math and it was gonna be like my oldest was gonna be 15, 16 months old when we had my second. And I really dissociated from that pregnancy. Like I almost like I was so disconnected from it because I was so busy with my baby. And he was at the time ward clerk and he was in the elders quorum, presidency and teaching in elders quorum,

John Dehlin [01:12:39] which are higher levels of responsibility in your congregation. Right, right.

Randy Day [01:12:45] And so she didn't see me on Sundays. I was not home.

Devlyn Day [01:12:48] He was gone all day.

Randy Day [01:12:49] So I mean, she would get the kids ready for church, she would get the food ready, the toys, the diapers, all that from. No, because I left it probably by 6am to go to bishopric meetings and then she'd do all that. And then after church I had, you know, do tithing and then meetings. And so it was pretty much her all day with the kids.

John Dehlin [01:13:09] That calling is preparatory for Becoming a bishop, correct?

Devlyn Day [01:13:13] Yeah, often. And in the ward we were in, it was a very high needs ward and not a lot of strong families. In fact, even I didn't even sit with him for half a sacrament, meaning because there weren't enough boys to pass sacrament. So he often would volunteer to pass sacrament. So I was sitting alone with a baby and pregnant. And at that time I was in my favorite calling, which is nursery. And so I was like, this is perfect. This is great. It's a good calling for me. I can bring my baby with me. He's busy and gone all the time, so. But yeah, I was very just focused on life and getting through. I was kind of like in survival mode. And so that pregnancy, I, I honestly would forget I was pregnant until someone would like say something to me about it. Be like, oh yeah, I. I'm, I'm pregnant. And then when I was like about eight months pregnant, I got a call that a bishopric member wanted to meet with me and wanted Randy there, of course, because my husband had to be there because they're going to extend me a calling. And I remember being devastated because I wanted to stay in nursery and I didn't know what they were. That was a big anxiety point for me too, is often not being told why someone's going to meet with you, like a bishop or someone wanting to talk to you. And I'm like, can you like tell me why you want to talk to me so I can like get myself ready. So that caused a lot of anxiety for me.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:52] Yeah.

Devlyn Day [01:14:53] And they called me into young women's at eight months pregnant with a one year old. And I told them I did. I didn't think that that calling was doable for me. And I was pretty much overrided and told that like they would make it work, that they would be willing to like change the day we were having mutual. Or they would work around me having small children and him being gone a lot. That was not so much the case. But I remember feeling like this internal sense that I should say no and being told to ignore that by your bishop. It was the first or second counselor. I don't remember what he was.

Exhaustion, Callings, and the Seeds of Doubt

John Dehlin [01:15:33] Bishopricmember because we're taught never to turn down a calling. Those callings come from God. And so who the Lord calls, the Lord qualifies is the phrase.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:46] Interesting. And I relate to that actually, because I was called into the young women right after having our third child within a couple months of her birth as well. Him in a very similar demanding situation and feeling like how like, how is this gonna work?

Devlyn Day [01:16:09] Yeah, yeah, it was really hard too. Cause the young woman's president, I was called to be the second counselor. We only had about three to five active girls in the ward at the time, so we didn't separate into different, like Laurel's, my mates, beehives. We all just met together. Laurel's president was very, like, not very flexible. And she also didn't want me bringing my children to young women's because she felt like it would be distracting from the lesson to the girls.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:37] Right, right.

Devlyn Day [01:16:38] So I was like, well, how am I supposed to attend young women's when I have two babies who aren't old enough to be in nursery? Because my oldest still wasn't old enough to be in nursery at the time that I had my second. And he was in elders quorum, and often he was teaching an elder quorum lesson. He couldn't bring the babies in while he taught a lesson. And so there would be. If there was a week that he wasn't teaching, he would take the girls. But otherwise I would just be. She didn't want me coming in, so I would just walk the halls with my babies on the weeks that he couldn't. And it was. It felt like really hard because I was like, you asked me to be in this position when you knew I had a one year old and I was eight months pregnant when you called. Absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:25] And to be clear, young women's involves oftentimes teaching on a Sunday and then also an activity that you attend plan weekly. And also, what would you say, like, execute, I don't know, the plan during the week and then meetings and kind of special stake things. And it's an involved calling, for sure.

Devlyn Day [01:17:51] Yeah, very much so.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:53] Yeah. That's hard. And the need, I think, is worth mentioning, you being in, you know, a ward situation that had a lot of need.

Devlyn Day [01:18:02] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:02] Because then it's not like you can. I don't know, that psychological thing you could do where it's like, well, someone else really could do this. Right. It just makes it harder to advocate. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:19] So, yeah. So at this point in your relationship, he's elders quorum president, and it wasn't president. Okay.

Randy Day [01:18:29] President C. President C. And then ward clerk.

John Dehlin [01:18:31] Ward clerk.

Randy Day [01:18:32] And I was all three ward clerks. I was like the membership clerk, the financial clerk, whatever the word was.

John Dehlin [01:18:38] What town is this?

Randy Day [01:18:39] So it's just east of Mesa. And so when we went there for the first time, because we bought a house out there, it just felt weird, like, because we're both from Mesa Gilbert,

Devlyn Day [01:18:48] the wards were big, right? This is Queen Creek or this is Apache Junction.

John Dehlin [01:18:53] Okay.

Devlyn Day [01:18:53] So it's more rural.

John Dehlin [01:18:55] Okay.

Randy Day [01:18:56] And so there's a lot of snowboards in that ward because there's two developments in our ward.

Devlyn Day [01:19:01] So I think there's retirement communities.

John Dehlin [01:19:04] Older people live in Arizona during the winter, correct? Okay.

Devlyn Day [01:19:09] Yeah. Very few young families. Like, I mean, when we moved in, maybe like five or six other young families.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:18] Okay, so.

John Dehlin [01:19:19] Okay, okay. So that's, that's a lot. That's a lot that you're three kids. Two or three kids. Young women's very evolved calling. And then elders, Crown presidency and three different bishopric colleagues all at once. So how I see next in the outline that you start to have a faith crisis. So, Devlin, explain how that happens. How in the world did you have time for a faith crisis?

Devlyn Day [01:19:51] Yeah, I think I was being burnt at both ends or all ends. I don't know. I was exhausted. I was surviving financially. We were really tight because we were a young family. I was. I was a work at home mom, but my job is very part time, and he was working full time at the time. He had found a job that did provide benefits and stuff, but we were very financially strapped and our callings demanded a lot. And I started feeling I would go to church and just feel sucked dry. And I was always had the experience growing up where I'd go to church and feel very spiritually fed and uplifted. And I felt like I was expected to provide that experience for my young women. And I had, like, nothing to give. It was like I was the pitcher that was empty, but I was supposed to pour into others.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:57] Right.

Devlyn Day [01:20:58] And I started. I also, at the time, I didn't realize it, but I'm pretty sure I was experiencing postpartum depression. And I don't know how much of that was hormonal and how much of that was like our circumstances or maybe just a combination of the two things. But I was feeling like I was going to church and I was like, my testimony felt like it was hanging on by a thread and I could feel it. But growing up, I was always taught, like, you go to church and it's your job to kind of like, make sure you're having a spiritual experience. And so it was my fault for some reason that my testimony was struggling. And I really took it on as I needed to do more.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:53] Right.

Devlyn Day [01:21:54] Which is really hard when you are, like, feeling drained, being like, you should serve more, you should go to the temple more, you should read your scriptures more. I was just feeling Like, I guess I need to do more.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:06] I also can I just say too, how. I mean no disrespect, but, like, how laughable it is to think about going into a situation like sacrament meeting, where it's people facing front, listening to a speaker, and it's supposed to be quiet. And you're alone in a pew with two or three children under the age of four and thinking, I really need to create myself a spiritual experience right now. It's up to me right now. The stress of just managing three littles in a pew where there's nothing that exists for them there in that meeting. There's nothing that. So you're having to entertain, take care of needs and have them all be quiet and also, you know, I guess be cultivating this spiritual experience for yourself. And that doesn't even count hour two or hour three of church that day.

Devlyn Day [01:23:13] Yeah. And then. Yeah. I was, after that, expected to go and teach a lesson to young women. There were only three leaders. I was one of three leaders. So I'm teaching one to two times a month a lesson. So it's like, then I have to go from that and be in this mode to, like, try to provide this spiritual experience for these young girls.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:33] Yeah.

Devlyn Day [01:23:36] And it. There were a few points along the way of things that had happened that I think at the time I maybe didn't realize were happening that were kind of putting, like, cracks in my shelf. I just talked to him about this of. So I had a friend who was going through a divorce. She was going through a faith crisis. At the time, I wasn't aware of her faith crisis when she posted a video on Facebook of John's TED Talk.

John Dehlin [01:24:13] Mine.

Devlyn Day [01:24:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:14] About the LGBT Mormon experience. Okay.

Devlyn Day [01:24:18] And this would have been. I'm thinking, like, early 2015 maybe.

John Dehlin [01:24:26] And I gave it in 2013.

Devlyn Day [01:24:30] Yeah. So she posts that, I watch it, and I'm like, what is she, like, getting into? Does her husband know? She's, like, listening to this kind of stuff. She obviously posted it publicly. And I was like, this is ex Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:24:47] And I was actually in the church active. It was my research for my PhD where all I was sharing was my findings from surveying LGBT Mormons. 1,612 LGBT Mormons. And I'm just sharing the research and the findings.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:03] It wasn't an ex Mormon act, and I wasn't excommunicated, so you wouldn't have thought of me as an excommunicated person.

Devlyn Day [01:25:10] And then around. I don't remember, it was like spring, summer around that same year. The ordained women thing started happening and I remember like hearing inklings of it through Facebook and kind of just being like, oh, these women, they want to wear pants and they want the priesthood. I'm like, I already have too much on my plate. I do not need the priesthood. On top of all that, like, no desire for that. And. But I was hearing things and I even remember, I think I like, even argued with a few people on Facebook about it, like random strangers on groups. And I just. But it also intrigued me. And I remember like really like kind of just following it a bit and following Kate Kelly's like, excommunication and like there were like rumblings that you, you were going to get excommunicated and just kind of thinking like, wow, like, these people can't leave the church alone. Why can't they just move on? You know, like very generic, like, gymnastics around that stuff. My second was just turning one around the fall of that year and. And I was teaching a lesson. We were in DNC that year in Young Women's and I was supposed to teach a lesson on the priesthood. And so I was diving into the history of the priesthood and I was, I'd made a. Because I was trying to build my testimony back up. I had decided I wasn't just going to give like, generic lessons. Like, I wasn't just going to read out of the manual and like, I was going to, to really learn about these things. Like, I wanted to be really informed. And so I did kind of like a deeper dive into the priesthood and things weren't like, adding up like the timeline. I felt like it was the Melchizedek priesthood. I was like, wait, how did that actually happen? And I remember, like, I'm going to like, see if a prophet has given some more information on it. And I remember like looking up on the church website not really getting clear answers, and I googled something and something came up that I remember made me really uncomfortable. It was something about Joseph Smith and like, being a fraud or something. And I think it was the first like, really ex Mormon thing that I had come upon. And I remember feeling like, oh, I can't look at that. And like, kind of moving past it really quick. But I remember, like, kind of put this like, thing in me that was like, something feels off.

Devlyn Discovers Church History Problems

John Dehlin [01:27:46] Was this the Melchizedek priesthood date sort of issue?

Devlyn Day [01:27:49] Yeah, like, how did it really. When did he receive it and how did he receive it? It felt like it was a little vague.

John Dehlin [01:27:55] Well, there's a really good LDS discussions episode about this because most Mormons don't know this, but there's two priesthoods in Mormonism, the lower priesthood, Aaronic and the higher priesthood. Melchizedek. And Joseph eventually claims to receive both. And he claims that John the Baptist gave him the Aaronic priesthood, but that Peter, James and John Jesus Apostles came back as spirits and gave him the Melchizedek priesthood. The Aaronic priesthood has a date where he claims to have received the ordination from John the Baptist, but there's no date to him receiving the Melchizedek priesthood, allegedly by Peter, James and John. And more importantly, one of the three witnesses that to the Book of Mormon, David Whitmer later writes, that whole Peter, James and John Melchizedek priesthood thing, Joseph made that up later. That never happened.

Devlyn Day [01:28:49] I think that's maybe what I came upon too, that I was like, okay, I just wanted to put the brakes on.

John Dehlin [01:28:54] I just wanted to let people know what it was. So you were rightly wondering, did Joseph make up the Melchizedek priesthood stuff later? Why isn't there a date for it? And so that's some context for the viewers.

Devlyn Day [01:29:06] So right around that time. Cause I was trying to build my testimony also. I was like, trying to just learn more about the church. And I love books, I love reading, I love history. And I'd never really gotten into church history before. And I was like, well, this will help ignite my love and passion for the church and the gospel to learn more about it and its roots. And my one friend suggested Rough Stone Rolling. And she told me it was like, sold at Deseret Book. And so I felt very safe getting that book and reading it and knowing that Richard Bushman had been like a patriarch and, you know, he was still active and believing. So I felt very safe reading that book. And so I got it. And, you know, I'd read it at night in bed, and I would make. I came across Guess the Rock in the Hat. And I had never heard that before. And I had said something to him, like, did you know about this? And he goes, oh, yeah, yeah. I learned that on my mission. I know. Like, he acted like it was like old news. And of course he knew about it. I was. Treasure digging was new to me. There were a few things that were talked about, like polygamy that I would.

John Dehlin [01:30:31] Was.

Devlyn Day [01:30:32] Polygamy was always on my shelf. I did not know Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. And so that was like, earth shattering for me reading that book. And right around that time, I found the gospel topic essays, and I was following footnotes and reading and finding stuff that like, I was like, I've been a member my whole life at this point, like 27 years, 28 years. I'd gone to seminary, I'd gone to institute, I'd read my scriptures, I watched every conference. Like I'd done all the things. And there was this information that had never. I'd never come across and it was shocking to me and I felt lied to and it. It was. I was still only sticking to like really church approved things at the time. But it kind of started opening the door to like, I don't feel like I'm being told everything. And it was around December or. No, no, it was November. There was the whole children of gay parents.

John Dehlin [01:31:57] The November 2015 LGBT policy.

Devlyn Day [01:32:00] Yes. That came out and I remember doing like these mental gymnastics of making it why it was okay that the church was doing it, but feeling really icky

John Dehlin [01:32:08] about it, saying the children of gay people couldn't get baptized or join the church.

Devlyn Day [01:32:13] Yeah, like, why are these children being punished? Like, when you grow up in the church, there's so many social implications to not being able to do all the milestones, the getting baptized, the getting the priesthood, and the fact that even they were wanting kids to disown their parents if they wanted to get baptized and go on a mission at 18. It just felt very wrong. I wouldn't say I was like an ally at the time, but just from a human aspect, it felt. Felt really wrong to me. So I remember that, that added. And then in December, something on my Facebook popped up that Mindy Gledhel was doing a Mormon stories. And I was aware of Mormon stories, but you're not supposed to watch it because John Dehlin. But I was really intrigued because I. We love her music. Our first dance was to one of her songs. She was very like, I don't know, her music was really important to me and I was curious and so I justified that I could watch that Mormon stories because I was curious at like, why she was going on it. And I remember watching it and. Or maybe it was listening. I don't even know if it was their video at that time. I can't remember. It was.

John Dehlin [01:33:43] We were. We were mostly audio.

Devlyn Day [01:33:45] Okay. It might have just been audio. I might have just been listening to it. I do remember, like being so scared of Mormon stories and then listening to that and being like, oh, it's just them talking about her like life experience and her going through a faith crisis and it didn't feel like. It didn't feel evil. Like, I thought it would. I remember thinking it was gonna feel, like, dark or, like, really negative. And I just remember feeling really validated listening to it, because a lot of, like, what she talked about, like, struggling with, like, the idea of polygamy and stuff, like, I related to that. And so that kind of opened the door to me, like, watching Mormon stories, and I started kind of devouring, like, all the older episodes. Like, and I think I watched Lindsay Hansen park her. And then I started listening to Year of Polygamy. And then I ended up after a bit, I was like, I don't think the church is what I thought it was. I don't think I really have a testimony. But I was still really afraid, and I was still trying. I joined the Thoughtful Faith Facebook group. I think they're, like, words of Mormon or something now. And the idea behind that group was people who were kind of going through the same experience but want to stay engaged with the church. They still want to be a part of the community. They still want to, like, make it work. And that's where I was at at the time. I'm like, I just. I need to make this work. Because he knew none of this. Like, he was completely unaware. He knew I was reading rough stone rolling, but he was not, like, concerned. Like, I wasn't telling him. I was struggling with my testimony. I was gonna fix it. Like, it was like, I can fix this. I can, like, get back to where I was before. And then I think probably around January of 2016, I decided to read the CES letter. And that was, like, the nail in the coffin for me. I think I was just like, I don't believe this anymore. It was, like, so slow and so fast at the same time. I think I read that in, like, a day. I, like, like, just, like, obsessively, like, could not stop. But then came the realization that, like, I had to tell Randy what was happening. And I was terrified because all this story.

Navigating the CES Letter and Early Faith Crisis

John Dehlin [01:36:39] So all this time, you hadn't been sharing anything with him?

Devlyn Day [01:36:42] No, nothing.

John Dehlin [01:36:44] So that's months and months.

Devlyn Day [01:36:45] Months. I think, like, probably things started in, like, October. Ish. And it was like, by January, where I was like, I'm pretty sure I can't go back to where I was before.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:57] Right.

John Dehlin [01:36:59] And I don't know that a never Mormon could really understand why, like, we already established that Mormonism and Mormon orthodoxy was at the foundation of your marriage. You checked each other's Mormon boxes. You're in it to win it. Eternal salvation, doing all the things now you're Having four hard months of questioning, all of it to the very foundation, and somehow you're going four months and never even mentioning it. Now, that's not a chastisement on my part, but it's just like, how would you explain to a never Mormon why that very first time you saw Mormon stories or whatever, or that first time you saw the TED Talk and you're having some questions, why aren't you saying, hey, honey, let's talk about what I learned today. Let's talk it through. Why aren't you, for those four months, communicating with Randy intimately?

Devlyn Day [01:37:51] I think the root of it was shame, because we really talked about everything else. I felt very safe talking to him about a lot of stuff. Like I said, I felt like we were best friends. I think there was shame in that I was questioning. I think there was shame that I wasn't staying solid rock in my testimony. I felt like there was something wrong with me that I had even gotten to the point where I was struggling. And so it was said something about my worth and I needed to fix it so I could come back to him and be like, I went through this, but I fixed it. And when I went through it and it actually got worse, I was like, oh, this is not how I saw this going. And now I'm in a spot that I don't even know how to get out of. And I. I don't. A lot of the stories I read on people who had faith crisises while they were in a marriage and they told their spouse went one of two ways. They told their spouse. Their spouse might be a little, like, upset at first, but then their spouse learned everything and left with them. Or their spouse said, I'm done. I can't stay married to someone who's not a member. And so my fear was, I knew Randy. He was not gonna leave the. The church. He loved the church. It was, like, who he was to his core. And so he's like, he's not going to want to stay married to me, and I have two little kids, and how am I? I love him. I don't want to lose him. I don't want to be a single mom. And there was a lot of fear keeping me from talking to him. There were so many moments that we would be alone, and I'd be like, okay, I'm going to tell him. And then a baby would cry, or we'd be going on a D, and I'd be like, I'm telling him tonight. And I'd be like, well, I don't Want to ruin the date. Like, this is our time. We have so little time together alone to connect. I don't want to ruin it. And then I never wanted to tell him when he was upset or when we were having a difficult time because that would just make it worse. So I kept finding excuses to push off telling him, but I was like slowly dying inside. It was just like I was in a deep depression and feeling very alone and very scared.

John Dehlin [01:40:17] So four months in early 20.

Devlyn Day [01:40:21] Yeah. So early 2016, I think, is when I was pretty sure there was no going back. At the time he was going through the process of applying to the Academy for Law Enforcement. He had interviewed with at least one agency. It wasn't really an agency he wanted to go with. And then there was highway patrol, and that's the one he wanted. And he made it through the first part of the application process and got an opportunity to do some testing with them in Tucson. And that was in March of 2016. So I went like three more months just pushing it off. And my mom was going to take the girls and I was going to travel with him to Tucson. We were going to go the night ahead of his test, stay in a hotel. And then the next morning he would go do testing with dps. And I was going to tell him on the way up, I was like, we have a nice quiet two hour drive. And then I was like, well, I don't want to ruin his test, right? I don't want to put him in a bad mood. He needs to be fully, mentally there for this test. So I'm like, now's not the time to tell him. So we, we drive up, we stay overnight, he goes and does the testing in the morning. And then we're gonna drive home. I have a friend's wedding later that night that we're gonna go to. We stopped to eat lunch. And I'm like, I'll tell him at lunch. And I was like, well, I don't want to ruin lunch. So I put it off again. And then we were in the car and we had the two hour drive and we're getting to go pick up our kids. And I'm like, I ha. I have to do it. Like, there is not going to be a better time to tell him like the worst news of his life. So I told him and I think it came out something like, I'm not sure that the church is what I thought it was. And I have learned some things that have me questioning it. And also I'm not sure that prophets are truly Prophets. And there was a good amount of silence. And I could just see he was driving, and I could just see his face. Kind of like, Randy isn't really good at conflict, and he doesn't like to rock. We didn't ever really fight because, like, both of us are like, we don't like conflicts. We never really fought in our marriage. And I could tell he was upset, but immediately he clicked into, like, missionary mode. And he bore his testimony to me about everything he learned on his mission, all his experience. And he testified of Joseph Smith, and he testified of. I believe it was President Monson at the time. And he kind of basically didn't really ask me many questions. He didn't really ask a whole lot of why or what happened. He just kind of, like, said what he believed. And then we cried, and then we rode in silence the rest of the way.

Randy Day [01:43:53] I remember bearing my testimony, and then I gave the, you know, hey, like, it's. It's okay to question. No, but, you know, just keep reading your scriptures, keep praying, and then everything will be okay. And so that's. I think it was kind of just left at that. Like, you know, she's gonna. She's a good Mormon. She's gonna do that and she's gonna find her. You know, she's gonna realize, and she's gonna strengthen her testimony. Not realizing. She's already been doing that. She's went through that process for months and months before.

John Dehlin [01:44:22] Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:23] And what she's telling you, in essence is it's not working. That's not what's actually happening for her. Yeah.

Randy Day [01:44:31] And because I was raised not, you know, not giving, like, talking about conflict, it was more just like, hey, things are gonna work out. That's just kind of how I kept guiding the conversation. Like, hey, it's gonna be okay. We're being blessed. We just keep doing what we're doing. Yeah, it's all gonna work out.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:45] I still get it.

Randy Day [01:44:46] I didn't think. I didn't look at it as like, oh, like, she's done. This is it. And, like, now it's a mixed faith marriage. No, in my mind is like, you know, we're just. Just a little stumbling block. It's gonna be okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:58] That's right.

Devlyn Day [01:45:00] And I think we didn't talk about it again until conference came in April, and I was really struggling with it. Just hearing all, like, the praise of Joseph Smith and stuff was really irking me because I was like, he was not a great of a person as everyone makes him out to be. And I think I kind of said something to him about really struggling with Joseph Smith. And we ended up between sessions like we were watching at his parents house. We ended up running an errand in between sessions and talking a little bit. And he kind of expressed a concern that if I didn't have a strong testimony, how could I be a good example to our children and a good mother to our children? I remember just like feeling so deeply cut by that because it's like, you know who I am as a person. I'm not a different person. I'm still a good mother just because I'm struggling with this. And I also just remember like really reassuring him that even though I was struggling with this, I was like, well, I had a good upbringing, I had a good childhood. I felt like the church provided me with a lot of good experiences, good a good path in life. I'm a good person. I have had all this community and I still want that for our girls. And so I just plan on still going to church, raising our girls this way. I was still wearing my garments. Like basically I told him, I'll keep doing all this stuff. I'm just really struggling with it. And so he was good with that. He was like, yeah, just keep doing that.

John Dehlin [01:46:50] It's like the Book of Mormon musical. Turn it off.

Devlyn Day [01:46:52] Like a white smoothie.

John Dehlin [01:46:53] That's exactly what it was.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:54] And also like you were saying, you existing in a way that makes other people basically easier or more comfortable for other people. You're like, thank you very much. Yes, that would make me feel more comfortable. Yeah, green light on that. Yeah.

Devlyn Day [01:47:12] So that's kind of how I lived life for a while. We would just ignore it. And then about every six months around general conference, it would bubble up or around, I would get triggered maybe by something and like kind of try to have a conversation with him and feel pretty shut down, like right away. Like I don't think he was trying to invalidate my feelings. I think he just literally could not understand them. I remember bringing up some trauma around because being in young women's was triggering a lot of, like a lot of the body shaming stuff. It was triggering a lot of the telling you, like, it's more important to become a mom than get like an education and have a career. So these things were coming up in these young women's lessons and experiences. And I remember telling him we had like a conversation around some messages I got in young women's that felt very unhealthy to me. And like that I was in charge of men's Feelings and thoughts and that I like, if you didn't dress a certain way, men would view you as pornography. And he basically was like, well, that wasn't my experience. And I was like, yeah, I know that is not shocking.

John Dehlin [01:48:31] Yeah.

Devlyn Day [01:48:31] And he was just like, I never heard that stuff. And I was like, I mean, so I think there was a lot of, like, just him not being able to put himself empathetically in my shoes, and also him afraid to dive into that because he just. He wanted it to go away. So.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:54] So what. What did that do to you?

Devlyn Day [01:48:57] I felt very alone, and I didn't know, like, anyone. There was, like, one friend, the friend who had posted the. The TED Talk. She was the one who told me about Rough Stone Rolling, and she was my one friend. I. I grew up with her. We had the same patriarch. We ended up, like, kind of sharing patriarchal blessings and being like, oh, these are kind of like, very similar. But, yeah, she's the only person I knew and I could talk to. But also, she was like, very. She was divorced at the time, and she was just in a different place in life where she was just done. She just. She left. She didn't have to worry about staying for her spouse. And so she moved along very quickly. And I was feeling very still, like I was there with an open wound.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:53] Right.

Devlyn Day [01:49:54] And I didn't have a whole lot of people to talk to. My whole. All of our family, on both sides, completely in the church, all of our friends, I didn't know anyone. So it was like the. A thoughtful faith Facebook page and listening to Mormon stories was the only place I felt sane. Like, I wasn't the only person going through this. But, yeah, I felt in my personal life, very lonely.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:21] Yes. I'm so sorry.

John Dehlin [01:50:25] This is so important. So thank you for your willingness to share. Devlin, let me ask you, Randy, from your perspective, like, I don't think any of us are thinking that you're a callous or an insensitive husband, an uncaring guy. I think the opposite's more true, that you're a deeply caring, kind, compassionate guy. So as she's telling you these things, I don't think you mean to be invalidating or insensitive. I don't think you mean to shut her down. But what are you experiencing from your point of view as she's going through these things, and how does that inform how you're responding to her or not responding?

Randy's Struggle to Hear Devlyn's Concerns

Randy Day [01:51:09] Yeah, so, like, during, I say, probably four or five years, we didn't really have deep discussions. It was More she tried. She would bring up something. And I was taught anytime there's something that, you know, if something negative to the church, church history or something, you just don't talk about it. You move on. And so she's trying to have these valid conversations. And you're right. I wasn't trying to just ignore her. But I didn't want to have those conversations because I'm like, this is gonna a slippery slope. You hear these things, you start talking about church history, and then you're caught up in it. And I'm looking church history. I'm like, that's not gonna happen. And so I. And I took that as I was being righteous. I was finding those opportunities that she's trying to tell me about things. Then I'm just bearing testimony. And so she would try to let me know, like, how she's feeling, and I'd let her know, like, you know, like, I love her and care for her, but, like, I don't want to have these. Like, I don't want to talk when it comes to, like, church history or things she's learning. Like, I don't want to know. And. And at the time, I. You know, I didn't really understand her pain. And so I just took it as I was just being a good example. I just need to keep doing that. And so I didn't see how much pain she was in or how lonely she was. Anytime she tried to talk about it, both of us would just end up crying because she wanted to feel heard. But I wanted to be a good example. And I don't want to talk about anything negative about the church. And. And I think the first time where I felt like, oh, no. She told me. We were in the car driving one day, and she told me about how she viewed our eternal marriage, our sealing. She looked at it different and not. I forget how you worded it, but that was the first moment when I realized, oh, no, she's done. She doesn't have this testimony or doesn't even believe in our sealing anymore. And that was devastating to hear. And then that's when I started feeling alone, because usually when I have hard. You go through hard difficulties. She's my rock. She's my best friend. I'd lean on her for help, or she'd lean on me for help. And so then I started feeling alone because I felt like I couldn't lean on her because she was the problem. And now I couldn't lean on her for help. And so I started talking to my parents or her parents. And just letting them know, like, hey, like Devlin told me, like, she is really struggling with her testimony and our ceiling, and she doesn't think it's valid. And so I think we just were in a place where we were both feeling alone, but every time we try to talk about our feelings, we both would just both feel hurt and not heard and just end up crying and then just kind of not in the conversations. We had those a lot for years. Kind of not solving the problem.

John Dehlin [01:54:16] But what were you afraid of?

Randy Day [01:54:29] I was afraid that now I was going to be alone on Earth in the celestial kingdom, because now she doesn't believe in that. So what's that going to look like for me? I was like, oh, no. Like, I'm doing what I should be doing. The Lord should be blessing me and us. And now I'm going to be alone. And then also just filling that mantle, like, okay, I'm the priesthood holder. My wife is no longer saying a good example, meaning the standards of the church. And so I felt like it was all on me now to be a good dad and to teach my kids the gospel anytime I had at the home. So I just felt like this huge mantle of, like, I need to be really good example to Devlin, and any chance I get, I'm gonna, you know, be a good example to her and to our kids. And so. And then just with the weight of, you know, everything in life and callings, and it just. I think both of us are just filling. I think both of us were just in survival mode.

John Dehlin [01:55:38] Yeah. Yeah. It's terrifying, isn't it?

Randy Day [01:55:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:41] And it's deeply sad when your loved one comes to you with doubts

Randy Day [01:55:50] and just having that the light switch is either on or off. And so anytime conversations come up, I just, like, nope. And then just slowly just, you know, things. You know, she. She'd let me know of certain of things. And I don't know what time frame this was, but I remember one morning, I opened the fridge and there was some. Some coffee in there. And I remember going to my room and just bawling because I. I didn't know she was drinking coffee. And that was. That was huge. And that was just a devastating. Like, what is going to happen to my marriage? What's happened to her? Regional salvation? Like, she's not on the right path. She is. She's. She's gone. And I don't. Eventually we talked about it, but it took. I think it took me a little bit to even bring it up to her, because I was just devastated.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:50] It's so interesting. I'm having a thought. I don't know if he'll relate or not, but it's kind of like up until this point, you know, And I think this is true in Mormonism. There's this emphasis on being the same. Anything that's, like, different, especially with regard to faith or belief, is viewed as, like, a contaminant. Like, it's dangerous. But, like, there's something about this experience that I'm really feeling deeply for you in this moment, especially with feeling a little bit sideswiped by coffee in your refrigerator. But this is someone you love. But now there's this danger part to this person that you love, and even this stranger part where it's like, I don't know who she is. I don't know if you felt that, but things are happening, and she's thinking things that are not what you would say she was, you know, six months ago or a year ago. And I just think it's this moment, actually in your relationship where it feels like you're coming to a realization you're not the same person. And I think that is a huge part of Mormonism is so much of Mormonism is a relationship with a checklist you're meeting, you know, and you had a friendship and you had other things. But in this moment, it's sort of like this realization of like, oh, I love someone who is not me, actually, and who in this moment, I don't know. And how scary that must have felt in that moment of like, I don't know what's happening now she's drinking coffee. Who knows what's next. She's saying our marriage isn't, you know, you know, eternal or whatever the case may be. And, yeah, the foreignness of that and being in a place of Mormonism where you could ever feel anything other than

Devlyn Day [01:58:56] that, you know what I mean?

Margi Dehlin [01:58:58] Isn't that amazing that we are in relationship or can get married under this real belief or I don't know where. Of sameness.

John Dehlin [01:59:09] Yeah.

Randy Day [01:59:09] And I remember having that, like, thought, like, okay, like, if she continues this, am I getting. Are we going to get divorced by her? But I told her one day, like, I'm like, I don't. That's not even a thought. Or that's. That's not a thing that I'm even considering because I felt like if we got divorced, then I'd be failing in that aspect of not being a good person because you don't want to, you know, get divorced. And so I. I took it as well. That's not even an option. And I do love this person. So I think that was a realization, like, you know, I do love her. We're not going to get divorced. So I think that's why I just took that mantle. Like, I just need to continue just being a good example, right? Because I think that was like, I do love this person. I love her so much. She just has slipped a little bit. But we're gonna. I'm just gonna keep doing what I should be doing, and God's gonna, you know, he's. He's gonna put his hand in. It's gonna be okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:10] Right? That makes all the sense.

Garment Wearing and Shifting Identity

John Dehlin [02:00:15] You mentioned in the outline, her garment wearing and. And what that meant to you. Do you want to talk about that?

Randy Day [02:00:23] Yeah, that was the part she said garment. So she. She had our third child, and then during her pregnancy, she never wore garments towards the end, like breastfeeding. So I never took that as a bad thing. I knew during that process. Then she put them back on after her third, I noticed her garments were still in her closet for a while. I'm like, oh, that's interesting. And then I just kept seeing the garments in there. And after a while, I'm like, I was afraid to ask because I was afraid to hear the answer. And so I brought up to her one day, like, hey, how come you're not wearing your garments? And she told me, like, I don't believe anymore. I've been telling you this for a long time. And it just wasn't, like, clicking in my head because I just kept having these, like, reassurance, like, I'm doing what I should be doing. The Lord's gonna bless her. He's gonna give her an experience where she's gonna totally see that what she's doing is not right, and she's gonna come back. And so when she told me, like, I'm not wearing garments anymore, I'm done. That was another moment where I just broke down and cried. And just that realization now, like, okay, now she's in a further way than I thought. First the coffee, now done wearing garments. And so it was just, again, just checking myself, checking our relationship. I'm like, we're going to get through this. I'm just going to keep having faith. We're just going to keep working towards this, and, you know, it's going to be okay. And same thing. I felt alone. And so I wrote. I sent an email to her parents calling her out. I did it with the intention of, like, feeling alone. I just needed someone to talk to. But in that moment, I was just. I think I was just like, tattletaling. Just like, she's not doing this and she's doing this.

John Dehlin [02:02:33] You said tattletailing.

Randy Day [02:02:36] And she hadn't talked to her parents about any of this, so I ratted her out to her parents. And then, oh, no, what I do next?

Devlyn Day [02:02:44] And then he told me about it, and I was devastated because I'm like, that's a conversation. I've hardly had this conversation with you. Like, I'm not ready for this with my parents. I'm. We're not even talking about stuff. And I'm like, at least it was just my parents, because my parents have to love me. At least it wasn't your parents because, like, I don't want your parents not to like me. And he goes, oh, I emailed them too. And then he was off to work. And I just sat with anxiety all day thinking, they're gonna call me. I'm gonna get a text. Someone's gonna be like, what's going on with you? Radio silence. No one reached out to me. So. And then the garment thing. So I had continued through unbelief. I was very pimo.

John Dehlin [02:03:36] Like, no one tell us what that means.

Devlyn Day [02:03:38] Pimo physically and mentally out. I was doing all the things I was holding callings. I was attending church. If he wanted to do scripture study or prayer as a family, I was there. No one would know. And wearing my garments. And then with my last pregnancy, it was around like maybe seven months pregnant, I got incredibly uncomfortable. I tried every one of the maternity garments, which I think there was like two options, right? And I was like, like, who designed these? Not a woman.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:11] I hear you. I hear you.

Devlyn Day [02:04:13] They were awful. And I was in a lot of pain. And so I wasn't wearing them at night. And then finally I was like, I. I cannot wear these. So I took them off with the intention of putting them back on after I had my baby. And those few months postpartum, I always didn't wear them. Maybe like two months at the most. I didn't wear them because of nursing and still like, all the things happening with your body healing. And it got to month two, and I was like, well, I better put them back on. And I remember going in my closet and putting them on and having a very physical reaction. I had a full on panic attack, sobbing, fetal position on the floor of my closet. And I was like, I cannot wear these. Like, they are causing me literal mental pain. And I knew what it would do to him. But I Was so afraid to tell him, like, I wasn't making that decision. It wasn't like, a conscious decision of, like, I'm not gonna wear my garments anymore because I don't like them. It was like. It surprised me.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:26] Yeah.

Devlyn Day [02:05:28] And so I didn't say anything, and I just put them back. And I continued wearing very modest clothing that you would assume I was wearing garments with, especially around family. I was always very careful to wear things that you couldn't even, like, see lines through.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:45] Yeah.

Devlyn Day [02:05:46] But, yeah, it was like, six months of not wearing garments before he even asked me.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:50] Right.

Devlyn Day [02:05:50] Quite a while before he. He approached that. And I did kind of, I feel like, say it in a very blunt way to him, because I think we had had years of, like, these little bitty conversations of basically, like, yeah, I still don't believe. But I'd never said it very boldly to him. It was like, I'm struggling with this. I'm trying.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:15] Softening language.

Devlyn Day [02:06:16] Yeah. I'd very softened it. And so this time, I think I just very boldly said, I don't believe them in them anymore. I don't believe I need to wear these. And I think the way I said it was so in his face that it's like he could not, like, brush it under the rug anymore.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:39] Yeah.

Devlyn Day [02:06:39] So.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:41] Well, and I'm noticing. So that's also a shift for you because you're not using the language to make him optimally comfortable. You are starting to actually try to have things feel more the way you feel. Right.

Devlyn Day [02:06:56] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:58] Were you aware of that happening through, like, is that a change? I guess I'm curious. In your relationship, you know, a theme you brought out earlier is how you don't feel enough, how you tend to blame yourself in a lot of the things that happen. And it makes so much sense with the conditioning, Randy, how you're processing it at this moment. And it reinforces. Devlin is being disappointing. Devlin is being the. And I'm just curious, psychologically for you, what's happening?

Devlyn Day [02:07:35] Oh, I felt like a huge disappointment. I felt like I was letting everyone down.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:41] Yeah.

Devlyn Day [02:07:44] It did not, at the moment, feel like a choice. It felt like I was on this roller coaster ride and I had no control of where it was going.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:54] Right. Yes.

John Dehlin [02:07:57] It's not a choice. And also, as you're learning new things, you're not necessarily feeling like it's your fault.

Devlyn Day [02:08:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:05] Right.

Devlyn Day [02:08:05] Yeah. Like, to him, I think he felt like I was making these choices. Like, I was choosing to, like, not believe or leave. To me, I didn't Feel like I was choosing this. It felt like it was happening to me.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:16] That's right. That's the disconnect, I feel like, in the conditioning. Yeah, but.

John Dehlin [02:08:20] But if so, I imagine he might have said, why are you. Why are you reading all this stuff? Why are you listening to all these things? Like, you could just choose not to. What would your answer have been?

Devlyn Day [02:08:30] I mean, he wouldn't even said that.

John Dehlin [02:08:31] He weren't talking about it.

Devlyn Day [02:08:33] We weren't talking about. He wasn't like, what are you reading? What are you listening to? It was just like. Like, I've heard some things that make me uncomfortable about Joseph Smith. And he was like, yeah, just like,

Margi Dehlin [02:08:44] don't listen to that.

Devlyn Day [02:08:45] Yeah, yeah. Like, it. It wasn't even like, don't listen to that. It was like, do this instead. Like, read your scriptures, go to the temple, Just, you know, listen to the prophets. Like, just. He wouldn't even say, don't do that. He was just telling me what I should be doing. And I was like, I've done all those things and it wasn't working.

John Dehlin [02:09:02] I. Yeah, but that's the common thing a believer will feel and think and say, if they're actually talking about it. It's like, why are you choosing to focus on the negative? And why are you focusing on anti Mormon literature is the way a believer would frame it. And if you had been actually talking, what would you say to that accusation that you were choosing to focus on anti Mormon literature? You would say, no, that's not what's going on. What's going on is, I think what

Devlyn Day [02:09:32] was I would have said was going on was I couldn't bury my head in sand anymore. There was information out there that I felt like was real and valid, and why wouldn't I want to know everything? Like, how am I supposed to make a decision without all the information? And once you know there's information out there, if you're ignoring it, then you're choosing also just to be like, your head in the sand, basically. You're just. You're. You're ignoring it, and you're choosing to ignore it. So that's how I felt. I felt like I had to learn this stuff. Like, and when I was first doing it, it was to, like, be able to, like, make sense of things and keep believing, right? Yeah, and keep believing. So it wasn't like, I didn't go into it with the intention of, like. Like, hurting my testimony anymore. I. It was the opposite. But then once I was there, it's like, there was almost an obsession at that point, because there was so much and I was so curious. So there was a point where it was like, I want to know everything now because I feel like it was hidden from me for so long.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:44] Yeah, that's where it feels like. I think it can feel existential because you almost feel once you start learning what you don't know, then you realize how much you don't know and how much you are in a false reality. And then you're like, well, now I need to know everything. To know what reality. What is reality then?

Devlyn Day [02:11:04] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:06] Yep. I think I want to just take a moment, though, back to the point of your processing being a disappointment at a moment actually where you're showing great courage and doing a lot of inner work. Also, I feel like really caring. Caring for your spouse in your marriage as well. Like, yeah, it just deserves a moment. You're kind of recreating also that external thing to be more internal. Listen to yourself. And yeah, just having a moment for that where it gets processed as disappointment. But really you're coming into your own in a way that deserves honoring. It deserves, like, a moment of just. And how often it just gets turned into something. You didn't create. The reality you're reading about, it's not your fault. You're just learning about it. Someone else's decisions created that reality, you know?

Devlyn Day [02:12:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:12:09] It's an act of courage and of truth seeking and of integrity and of self development.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:16] That's right.

John Dehlin [02:12:16] And it gets framed as acts of weakness or of faithlessness or of apostasy or of sin.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:25] That's right.

John Dehlin [02:12:25] Or of wickedness.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:27] Yeah, that's right.

Devlyn Day [02:12:28] I know when anyone, like, would say, like, oh, they just left the church because they wanted to sin. I had no desire to sin. Like, I never really liked garments. So, I mean, but that wasn't my purpose for leaving that, like, I continued wearing them after I didn't even believe in them anymore for at least two years. But, like, I had never drank, I'd never done drugs, I had never, like, done anything. And I didn't really have a huge desire. Like, I wouldn't have given up my eternity for those things. So I find it very, like, invalidating when people, like, brush it off so blase. Like, oh, you just wanted to, like, do things you shouldn't. And now there's all these, like, people who are very, like, active Mormons who are kind of just like, picking and choosing and doing the things. So I'm like, I could have done that if, you know, I could have Just done the things I wanted to do and stayed in. It was much harder.

Margi Dehlin [02:13:29] Yeah.

Devlyn Day [02:13:30] To step away from it, but.

Margi Dehlin [02:13:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:35] So, Randy, back. Thank you for that. And Randy, back to you. Like, you mentioned a dream you had. Do you want to share your dream? Yeah.

Randy Day [02:13:43] So in my dream, we were, me and Devlin, the kids were just like in our house and talking. And then Devlin, I think she swore or she said something in her dream, and I was like, hey, we shouldn't talk like that way around the kids.

John Dehlin [02:14:00] And she swore in your dream?

Randy Day [02:14:02] Yeah. And so, but it was just very, like, nonchalant. And I was like, hey, we shouldn't talk that way around our kids. And she's like, oh, it's fine, it's okay. And for some reason I woke up and I just felt like, I just felt like this is what's happening. You know, when people leave, they just, you know, they just keep doing more and more things. And that just the thought of, like, the thought of now if that we're bringing that into the home and then she's going to have this example on the kids where the kids are going to start maybe seeing things differently or church differently, that crushed me. And just the thought of, oh, no, this is my job to keep my kids in the church. And now this realization of Devlin can influence them to do, you know, other things. The things that she, you know, that she thinks are right but that go against the church standards. It was just this battle of like, well, I also love Devlin, but I can't allow this in the home. Like, things like that.

John Dehlin [02:15:12] This is such an emotional moment for you. But I also just have to note, have you seen the book. Warm musical.

Randy Day [02:15:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:15:19] Do you remember the, the Spooky Mormon Hell Dream? There's literally a dancing cup of Starbucks in the Book of Mormon's Spooky Mormon Hell Dream.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:28] Did you feel validated?

Randy Day [02:15:30] When I saw it, I laughed because

John Dehlin [02:15:31] I'm like, wow, you had a Spooky Mormon hell Dream.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:34] It was real.

Randy Day [02:15:34] It is. Because that was. And the moment, it was so devastating and just so, like, heart wrenching. Now it's just like, well, now you can laugh about it, but yeah, it just stung so deep every time we had those, those kind of moments.

John Dehlin [02:15:49] Yeah, no, but I mean, that slippery slope, they have a dancing Starbucks cup next to, like, Jeffrey Dahmer and Adolf Hitler, right? Yep. Because in your mind it starts with coffee and it ends with genocide. You know what I mean?

Randy Day [02:16:04] It's the first slow for that coffee.

John Dehlin [02:16:07] Wow, that's funny. You're on spooky Mormon hell dream. So in all seriousness, would the thoughts of like, can I stay married to her? Should I divorce her? Is she gonna ruin our kids? Did you have those types of thoughts?

Randy Day [02:16:21] Absolutely. And it was again, I. Always knew that she was going to come back to the church, to the church. And so it was just, I'm just going to keep being a good example because we're not going to get divorced. That's going to be bad for. I don't want our ceiling to be broken. Like, we're going to stay together, we're going to work through this together. Because I just, it was, it was the faith. I have faith that Lord's gonna do something where she's gonna realize what she's doing is wrong and she's gonna come back. And so I think that's why I just doubled down on teaching our kids. Any moment we had, I was, you know, telling them Book of Mormon stories or, you know, we're making sure we always said our prayers at night and always were, you know, reading our scriptures. And so I always just made sure that I was just that good example to my kids and just want to make sure that they knew what was right.

Resentment, Elders Quorum Presidency, and Growing Apart

John Dehlin [02:17:22] So how did your mixed faith marriage. At this point, you're in a mixed faith marriage not talking, not talking about it. You're the believer, you're either the pmo, but you're physically in, mentally out. But you're also introducing not wearing garments and coffee into the equation, starting to not want to go to church. I know Covid plays into this. How did y' all settle into going from the initial shock and the sadness and the questioning of like, do we even want to stay married? How'd you settle into staying close as a couple, staying healthy as a couple, raising kids and navigating a Mormon, non Mormon life simultaneously?

Devlyn Day [02:18:07] So I think one thing is our kids were very little at this time, so. So our oldest was only like not even five yet. We had, we had a four year old, a three year old and a baby. So a lot of it is we weren't really coming up against a whole lot of our kids. I mean, they were in like nursery and primary and like, you know, they weren't really questioning anything.

John Dehlin [02:18:37] It's too early to talk about the Book of Abraham.

Devlyn Day [02:18:40] Yeah, yeah. So like I was fine with the little, you know, Jesus coloring pages they were bringing home and stuff. And I was in nursery, so I still had a calling. And one thing that I think is important to mention is when he got called to be the elder Scorm president. And at the time there was like a brief time where he was like my co teacher in primary or was. Yeah, it was primary because I got moved up with my 3 year old into Sunbeams and they made him my co teacher. I had a baby and we get a call that he needs to meet with the stake president and so we knew that was going to be a big calling and they took him into off by himself without me and I sat out there with the baby and I think my sister in law was watching the other two.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:38] That's interesting. Interesting.

Devlyn Day [02:19:38] Yeah. So I didn't get here the super secret calling yet and after all it felt like forever. They called me in and broke the news that he was getting called to beat the elders quorum president. And this was just when they took away the. What was it? The high priests they'd combined high priests with. So it was like new. Everything was new.

John Dehlin [02:20:05] What's one of the top five leadership positions in a congregation?

Devlyn Day [02:20:08] Yeah, yeah, right.

John Dehlin [02:20:09] It's over. The men, basically.

Devlyn Day [02:20:10] Yeah, yeah. And the stake president looked at me and asked me if I could support Randy in this calling and if I had any concerns. And I said I'm more than willing to support him in anything that he chooses to do, but I have some concerns. And I expressed to that stake present that, that I had just had a baby. He was in a very demanding job where he had very few days off with the family that he didn't get a lot of sleep at that job because he worked night shift as highway was a police. Yeah, okay. Yeah. He was pretty new. He had only been on the road maybe six months at this point.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:51] Okay, yeah.

Devlyn Day [02:20:52] So he was working nights shift work and I had three young children and I struggled with postpartum. By this time I was really aware I was struggling with postpartum and I expressed this concern to the stake president. I'm like this is a lot on his plate and I am also struggling and I am concerned. And he basically brushed me off and was like. When I was first called the bishop, my wife had her like sixth baby and she had postpartum depression and we were blessed. For me accepting the calling as a bishop and he kind of like it felt very dismissive. I felt like he was like silly woman, God will take care of it, don't you worry. We don't really care what you think.

Margi Dehlin [02:21:35] Can we have a moment for you though? Because that you having that discussion in that way with the stake president.

Devlyn Day [02:21:41] Yeah, it was the stake president.

Margi Dehlin [02:21:43] Like that's some great Advocacy. That was pretty amazing.

Devlyn Day [02:21:46] Yeah. So I was a little bummed that he didn't seem to care very much, but Randy seemed very excited. I don't know if you were excited. Were you excited?

Randy Day [02:21:57] Yeah, because that's the big part, Moving up the hierarchy.

Devlyn Day [02:22:01] Yeah.

Randy Day [02:22:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:22:02] I mean, as your wife isn't believing, what was that like again?

Randy Day [02:22:07] I had the mindset that she's just struggling right now and she's gonna come back soon. And so that's my mindset during this whole time, like, I just kept having faith, she's gonna come back. So I'm not going to say no. No to a calling, because I want to be obedient. And I know that, you know, God isn't going to give anything I can handle, so I'm going to accept it because God wants me to do that. Can't say no. And I remember my mom told me when I was, like, 15 or 16 that I was going to be a great bishop one day. And so this is that step of making that progress in the church, where soon I can continue being righteous. And so I just took that as a token of righteousness and, you know, not thinking of what that's going to do to her.

Margi Dehlin [02:22:58] Right. Oh, like I was going to say, did it at all feel like a reward, kind of like for your righteousness? Like, there it is. There it is. God sees me.

Randy Day [02:23:07] Yeah, absolutely. I was doing the right thing. So it's a check. It was a. It was a confirmation. Like, hey, I know you guys are struggling right now, but because you're accepting this, like, you're gonna be blessed. And, you know, soon Devlin's gonna realize this and she's gonna come back. So I just felt like it was just all part of the plan, like, I'm gonna continue being that great example, and soon she's just gonna come back.

John Dehlin [02:23:31] Maybe accepting that calling might help increase the likelihood she would come back.

Randy Day [02:23:35] Yeah. Because that's how that was my mindset. I'm just gonna keep having that faith.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:41] That's right. And I can see this situation in particular, I'm curious to hear. But it feels like an agitator, like something that's just gonna become more of a barrier. So did it. Cause you're actually in relationship with Randy and you're saying, I have concerns and I'm overwhelmed. And. And you're saying, more righteous. Accept the. And it just feels like the divide is. Did it feel that way?

Devlyn Day [02:24:11] Yeah. It caused more resentment against the church for me. Of. Here's one more thing. It's taking from me. Like, he is gone all the time. He worked Wednesday through Saturday. He did four tens. So Sunday was his first day off of work. Oh, but he was gone all day, so we didn't see him Sunday. And then our young or our oldest was in kindergarten, and so he didn't wake up and go to work till 2 in the afternoon, and he worked till midnight. So he didn't wake up till after she was gone to school. And then by the time she got home from school, he was gone to work already. And so really, the only days he got to see her were like, Saturday morning and Sunday and then Monday and Tuesday mornings before she went to school. So he was hardly. We were hardly getting any family time together. Sunday was pretty much gone. And then also on Saturdays, sometimes before he would go to work at Chew as an Elders quorum present, he'd be getting calls. So and so needs help moving.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:23] Right.

Devlyn Day [02:25:23] So and so needs a blessing. And because there weren't a lot of available priesthood holders or people who could help, he was often gone doing those things or making lots of phone calls arranging those things. So even the little time he did have was constantly being taken. And I felt like I was doing it all all alone with three very little kids. But then also he was resenting me for not like, you know, reading scriptures with them or teaching them, like, come follow me lessons.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:57] Right. Yeah.

Devlyn Day [02:25:58] So.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:59] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:26:01] So you accepted the calling and it did not bring you closer? It sounds like.

Devlyn Day [02:26:06] No.

John Dehlin [02:26:07] And it didn't bring you back.

Devlyn Day [02:26:09] No.

John Dehlin [02:26:09] One thing I. One thing I should say at this point, there is a. I hear there's a podcast now called Come Back where people talk about returning to the church after leaving. You both smiled and nodded when you heard that. What were you smiling and nodding? Before I make my point, I'm curious.

Randy Day [02:26:26] I don't know if this is what you're smiling about, but my mom sent me an episode of that during this time of like, hey, there's hope kind of thing.

John Dehlin [02:26:34] Yeah.

Devlyn Day [02:26:35] I've heard a lot of people get sent episodes of that who have left their family members will send it. No one has sent it to me, but I've heard a lot of, like,

Margi Dehlin [02:26:46] it used to be Ensign articles. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:26:49] Well, the point I was trying to make is that when the gospel, when we did our. With Marlon Jensen and Hans Mattson and Quentin Cook and Elder Ballard, when we helped with the faith Crisis Stuff In 2011, 2012, Marlon Jensen gets involved, Swedish rescue happens and all that. I remember talking to Marlon Jensen at one point, and the point he Made was once someone loses their faith because of historical or social justice issues, whether it. It's church history or feminism or the LGBT stuff, it's very rare that they ever come back. Now, if somebody leaves because they, like, you know, the church isn't interesting to them, or they have some party years where they become Jack Mormons, and they, you know, and they leave the church for a while just because they want to have fun or it's not really vibing for them, it is totally normal for them to come back after that. And so what we don't do, I think, well enough in the church, and what I don't know that members or leaders know enough to do is to distinguish between the types who leave for the reasons you left. Because once you start to believe that Joseph Smith might have been a sexual predator, that the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham were likely frauds, it's hard to come back from that. Right?

Margi Dehlin [02:28:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:17] And that's a very different thing than, like, I wanted to party in my sorority in college, and so I started having fun, and then I felt guilty at church, and so I stopped going. And so I, you know, I just. I want to call that out, that there are different reasons to leave. And the reasons you left were largely unrecoverable, based on my experience. Does that sound right to you?

Devlyn Day [02:28:39] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:40] Yeah.

Devlyn Day [02:28:40] I don't feel like it's something that I could just turn off in my brain anymore. It's like, once you know it, once you see it, the curtain's gone. I could not find a way to put it back.

John Dehlin [02:28:54] I remember a bishop or stake president challenging me to read the Book of Mormon daily when I was having a faith crisis. I'm like, okay. And then I start reading it, and I'm like, well, there's an anachronism. There's an anachronism. Why are horses there? Why is steel there? Why are they calling dark skin a curse? Like, it. Just reading the Book of Mormon closely just made it worse.

Devlyn Day [02:29:13] Yeah, that's kind of. The temple was for me after, like, I found out all the things, then I started going to the temple, and it was no longer just, like, going through the motions. I started, like, really listening and picking things apart and being like, oh, yeah, I don't really like that. That's kind of sexist, or, oh, that makes me feel really uncomfortable. Or, why is that in there? Oh, that's Masonic. And so it's like I started paying more attention and seeing more.

John Dehlin [02:29:41] So, Randy, so how did y' all progress you being now Elders Quorum president and, like, one of the top five spiritual leaders for your entire congregation, and your wife is drinking coffee and no longer wearing her garments. How'd that progress?

Randy Day [02:29:57] Yeah, so it's, I think, the calm before the storm. So Covid hit, and this was a part of marriage where I feel like we were starting to connect more again because we weren't going to church now it was home church. And so I loved it because I could tell that she was more comfortable. And I felt like she could be more herself during that time because she wasn't going to church. I know before that she's anxious going to church and anxiety starting Saturday night. And so I noticed the difference of when we started doing home church. I felt more connected to Devlin than in a long time. And so every. You know, we did that every week. We made sure we did the sacrament at home. And I had a lesson. And the kids, we know they're still young in the primary, so we'd, like, watch. We do some sort of, like, activity. And it was just something that. It brought peace for a little bit in our home and just that connection, because I feel like we. And, you know, we just had a. Up to that point, it was rocky and didn't really talk much about church. But now we're having this moment with church tying it in, and I felt like, okay, this is really good. I think this might be, like, the. This might be it, where she's going to start progressing and start coming back to church once, you know, when church starts up again.

John Dehlin [02:31:21] You're laughing.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:22] I'm noticing a theme, right?

John Dehlin [02:31:24] Yes.

Devlyn Day [02:31:25] He's very optimistic. Um, yeah, for me, I remember the day that, like, the whole world shut down, right? We were at the zoo, and we got, like, this notification of, like, Covid and, like, I don't know, the big announcement that things were shutting down and school wasn't gonna. We were. Our kids were. Well, our one child was on spring break, and I was like, oh, so, like, we're not going back to school? And the church made the announcement that we weren't going to have in person, church. And even though I had this dread around Covid, there was, like, this relief about not going to church. I remember just immediately feeling like I don't have to go. And I'd never let myself consider not going because I had promised him I would continue going. We'd raise our girls in it. So it was something that wasn't my fault that I got to, like, not go. And, like, he said, it brought some peace because one I starting Saturday, I would have this buildup of anxiety of going. Like, my body would literally just be like, I'd get headaches. I'd feel nauseous. Yeah, I just dreaded going. And then all during, like, church, I just was just trying to make it through without crying most of the time. And then. And then even Monday, it was almost like a recovery day. Like, I just felt drained on Monday. So we were spending a lot of time together as a family. We had home church, but it was very, like, basic. It was what we wanted to do, and we were really centering it around our kids age. So it was very like, jesus loves you. Like. Like, I felt like it was very, like, things I could get on board with. And we are also doing it to our schedule. It's like, oh, we don't have to get up and get the kids out the door. And like, it took a lot of the external pressures off.

Margi Dehlin [02:33:25] That's right. Yeah.

Devlyn Day [02:33:26] And I just remember feeling, like, more recharged than I had felt in years. Like, I was like, oh, this is nice. And, yeah, we were getting along well again. We weren't really talking about me not believing, but I think he felt good because I was participating still in, like, the lessons and taking the sacrament. And I think one thing I do remember is one of our girls asked if they could pass the sacrament one day. And he was like, oh, no, you can't do that because they're girls and they don't have the priesthood. And. And so I remember him explaining that to them, and it was just like another thing, like a twist of the knife of like, yeah, I have these girls in this church. They're being raised to basically be like, yeah, you're not as important as the boys. You can't do the things the boys do. And I did not realize. I would not have have said I was a feminist my whole life. I would have been like, feminist is a bad word. Like, And I really had a feminist awakening when I started leaving the church. And also raising three girls brought that really to the surface for me of, like, yeah, I started being really concerned for them as they were getting older, the messages they were going to be receiving about themselves, about their bodies, about their effects on men, about their worthiness and their abilities and education and career. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:09] Yeah.

Devlyn Day [02:35:09] So that was like, that was definitely coming to light because they were getting older and we were, you know, he would. We. We would have more of those conversations with them, so.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:19] Right.

Devlyn Day [02:35:19] But as a whole home church felt much more bearable to me.

John Dehlin [02:35:25] And then Covid ends.

Randy Day [02:35:28] Yeah, it was conference weekend, I think, because we were coming home and we got the memo that we're going to start going back to church. And Deb told me that she didn't think she could go back full time to church. And so we talked about it and she was like, hey, I'll come, like, maybe every other weekend or, yeah, every other Sunday, so I can still be there for support. But, you know, I can't do this. I can't do this full time anymore. Going to church, like, I don't believe anymore. And so at this point, I'm feeling like, okay, like, it is what it is. I'm going to be supportive. And I didn't, like, I didn't like that she was only going to go half the time, but I'm like, I'll support that. Because I was seeing. I. I started noticing her mental health around this time. Anytime we talked about church or anything church related was brought up or my responsibilities as Ellis Corn was brought up, I then start realizing how much it was affecting her. And so I think that I started making. Being more aware and acceptive of like,

John Dehlin [02:36:43] hey,

Randy Day [02:36:45] this is, you know, I can still serve. I can still be a good, righteous husband, but I want my wife to be happy too, and I want her to be in a good place. And so we talked about how she would only come every other Sunday. And I think it lasted a couple weeks. And then she said, I'm done. I'm done going to church.

John Dehlin [02:37:10] It's hard.

Devlyn Day [02:37:11] It was hard going back. It was. I think having that reprieve made me even more aware of how it was affecting my mental health. And I was in such a deep depression before and that lifting a little bit during the break and then going back, and it kind of sunk me down in again. And I realized for me to be a good wife and a mother and be a whole person, I cannot keep putting myself in this situation that's causing me such distress. I didn't feel like I could be a part of the community because I didn't feel like my voice was. Was allowed to be heard. If I disagreed with something, I don't even think I could have said it in a very, like, calm or, like, compassionate way. I feel like if I even said, like, hey, I have a different point of view, I would have been shut down. Like, our ward wasn't like, liberal at all. Like, it was extremely conservative. So I didn't feel like I. I felt like you just need to sit in the back and be quiet and if you can't agree, don't say anything. And I didn't feel like that was healthy for me to be in an environment where I felt like everything that was said that I disagreed with, I wasn't allowed to feel differently.

Randy Day [02:38:34] And I think this is where like now with definitely not going to church, two things were big for me. It was people are aware that she's not going now. So friends, family, they know that she's no longer going to church. And then with my calling, I started feeling overwhelmed during this time with my job and then with the elders quorum president. Now church is back. And so now I'm in full swing again, doing all the duties. And I called my dad and asked him if he could come give me a patriarchal blessing or sorry, a priesthood blessing. Just let him know, like, I'm feeling overwhelmed with things, with life and I just need, you know, I just need a blessing. And so he gave me a blessing. And in the blessing he told me that God's aware of my situation, you know, my callings and my marriage. And I just need to keep doing what I'm doing and just keep being righteous, continue what I'm doing and keep doing it. And so I was looking for a blessing of like comfort. And the blessing was go harder. Like you got this.

Devlyn Day [02:39:53] And one thing that stuck out to me in that blessing was he said the adversary is attacking your family.

John Dehlin [02:40:01] Meaning like he, in Mormon language, who is the adversary?

Devlyn Day [02:40:06] Satan was attacking our family. And that he needed to continue doing everything, staying strong for our family, to protect our family. And so this was supposed to be a blessing of comfort. And I mean that was very like a normal blessing, I guess. But to me, in that moment I felt like, oh no, this is putting more pressure on him. He is already stretched so thin, he's so stressed and now he's being told the adversary is attacking our family and it's all on him. So then I was concerned about that. And then my father in law is super, like, he's just the nicest guy. And he, after he gave Randy the blessing, he asked me if I would like a blessing. And I was like, no, thank you, I do not want a blessing. But yeah. And he was also taking the kids to church by himself. So three very little kids all by himself and this big calling. I think you had your mom come with you to church to help with the girls during sacrament a lot for a little bit. But it was a lot. And I felt guilty, I felt bad. Like I felt like I was being selfish, but I Just knew I was at that point where I, like, physically could not survive going. Like, it was not good for my mental health for me to go. Like, I would not last long there. So it was kind of like I had to choose my battle.

John Dehlin [02:41:34] Yeah. Okay. And so, Randy, what's this doing for you?

Randy Day [02:41:39] It just makes me just keep going stronger. I'm just more, you know, just gonna keep being righteous during this time. So I'm having conversations with friends, like, hey, Devlin, it doesn't go to church anymore. And so that started affecting me, just having those conversations. Like, I'd be emotional with friends, you know, letting them know that Dev doesn't go anymore. And with her not going to church, I just felt like we were just kind of, our relationship was kind of like slipping again. Just wasn't. It just wasn't as strong as it was. And again, we're just having conversations again, and it's that feeling again of like, we just both end up hurt and devastated. And so I forget who, but at one point we're like, we just, we need to try therapy. Let's try therapy. And so, and so we started going to therapy In, I think, 21.

Devlyn Day [02:42:43] It was the summer of 21.

Randy Day [02:42:45] And that was a huge help in the fact that I'm learning now during therapy that I don't know how to communicate. I was raised of, like, you know, hey, just, if something's hard, you just, you know, just keep going. You know, don't talk about hard things or unhealthy things.

John Dehlin [02:43:05] Put your shoulder to the wheel.

Randy Day [02:43:06] Yes. And so I'm realizing, wow, I've been doing this during our whole mixed faith marriage. Like, I, I haven't been supportive at all with her. I haven't been having hard conversations with her. I'm now learning that I shut down during hard conversations, which then makes, I'll just shut down. And then our conversations end. And so therapy was a big awakening to me of just learning how to communicate in a healthy way. I remember the first couple sessions, I, I, my, the therapist asked like, hey, how are you feeling? And she'd be like, I don't know, I'm feeling something. And she had the smiley face chart, and she'd give me the smiley face chart. How are you feeling?

Finding a Therapist and Learning to Communicate

John Dehlin [02:43:49] Like learning to name your fellow.

Randy Day [02:43:50] That's right.

Margi Dehlin [02:43:51] No, that's so real.

Randy Day [02:43:52] So I felt like I was starting, like, as a child again, learning how to really dive deep into having a healthy communication, even if it's something hard.

Margi Dehlin [02:44:03] Yeah.

Randy Day [02:44:04] And so I think that was a big, a big step in Our marriage where we could finally start expressing how we felt. In therapy, she would say something really hard and struggling. And usually before therapy, if she'd say something like that, it would just conversation would be over, like, oh, sorry, we're not going to talk about that. But now in therapy, she's able to talk about how alone she feels, how certain aspects of the church are really hard for her. Then, you know, I was able to express how I felt. And so that was a huge

Margi Dehlin [02:44:39] an

Randy Day [02:44:39] awakening for me and like, hey, like, I love my wife, like, we're gonna keep making this work. And so I really enjoyed therapy, although I was still learning how to learn how I was feeling. But then also then use those tools and after we would, we start having more conversations outside of therapy.

John Dehlin [02:45:00] I have to ask. One of the big challenges for a mixed faith Mormon couple is how to find a therapist. Because oftentimes the church or bishops or members will recommend, you know where I'm going with this, a faithful therapist. And if they're unethical, they'll be like, hey, non believing marriage partner, read the scriptures and pray. That's not super helpful. Right. But then if it's a secular therapist, you know, the secular therapist might, if they're unethical, just tell the believer why you believe such stupid things. You should just leave the church. So how do you find a therapist that can navigate a mixed faith Mormon marriage? That's complicated. Right.

Devlyn Day [02:45:39] Well, originally we had a really great bishop at the time, and he did end up asking to be released from being an Elders Quorum president. I don't know if you want to go into that story.

Margi Dehlin [02:45:49] That's big.

Devlyn Day [02:45:50] Yeah, but he talked a lot, lot with the bishop during being an Elders Quorum president. He met with the bishop a lot and the bishop knew our situation and he offered to pay for therapy for us, which I was really appreciative because I was like, how are we going to afford this? He Randy did tell him she does not want to go through LDS services. She wants someone outside of that. So our bishop did say, well, get three names of therapists and their prices and submit it to me and I'll approve which one to go do. And I didn't really love that either because I had been to a couple therapists for myself before this and I kind of found out you jive with some and you don't with others. And I didn't really want the bishop choosing our therapist. I wanted us to both find someone that felt safe for both of us. So we kind of started looking on our own, and we were hitting a wall. It took us probably six months to find someone, but kind of luck is how we found ours. So I had joined Katie and Alan Mount's marriage on a tightrope group, and I had requested to add him, and he didn't see the request for, like a year, but he did finally join. But in that time, Katie was coming to Arizona for something and was like, hey, let's do a girls night. Non member or member Wives. Just all wives. And so we met and had dinner. It was fantastic. And I met a woman there who she was out, her husband was in. And they had a therapist they really both loved. And she was just. Just raving about this therapist and was like, my husband feels safe with her. I feel safe with her. And so I was like, I need her name, and immediately contacted her. And I think we got in within a month. And both of us immediately liked her, so we didn't have to, like, bounce from therapist to therapist. So helpful. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:47:58] I just want to say, like, you would never go to a podiatrist or foot doctor for heart surgery. You would never go to just some random therapist for a Mormon. Mixed faith marriage therapy. It's a specialty.

Devlyn Day [02:48:10] Yeah. Because I wanted someone who understood and I could speak openly about leaving, and they wouldn't tell me I was wrong and I didn't want to go. Someone who's ex Mormon, who.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:21] That's right.

Devlyn Day [02:48:22] Didn't understand him or, you know, maybe he felt pressured from their perspective. And then someone completely never Mormon would really not understand situation.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:34] To understand.

Devlyn Day [02:48:35] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:36] Yeah. You'd have to, like, explain context and.

Devlyn Day [02:48:39] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:40] So much of the session.

Devlyn Day [02:48:41] Yeah. And originally when we started going to her, how she set it up is she met with us together, and then we would do individual sessions with her because she wanted me to feel safe, to speak openly and him to speak openly about how we were feeling about things that might hurt the other. And then we would come together as a couple session again and kind of like, maybe work through some of those things. And I think after a few months, what we found is we were leaving our individual sessions and talking to each other about them. And she noticed that and said, do we just want to always meet together? And then if we need to focus on one person's experience, we'll focus on that one person. And if we need to focus on the other person.

Margi Dehlin [02:49:24] It's amazing.

Devlyn Day [02:49:24] Yeah. And it was a really good setup for us. I think it really opened up talking more. And I think that's where I kind of Opened up about feeling lonely because he never asked about my experience and he never. I told him it was such a big part of my life, and I feel like I can't talk to you about it. And that feels really lonely. And he realized like, that it wasn't just me trying to talk to him about the church to pull him out of it. It was to connect with him more.

Margi Dehlin [02:49:55] That's right. To be known.

John Dehlin [02:49:58] And this is where it can get really dangerous. Because if, number one, you can get so depressed and lonely in your marriage that you develop serious mental illness and. Or suicidality, that's one possibility. But also a lot of infidelities can develop. If you can't talk to your spouse about. About these most critical things, then you just are desperate to find any listening ear. And it can be an old high school boyfriend or girlfriend or some other friend, and it can lead to marital problems and. Or infidelity. So it's really serious. And so you just want to find a good, competent therapist. And I'm glad y' all found that.

Devlyn Day [02:50:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:50:42] So how did things progress once you started communicating better?

Randy Day [02:50:46] Well, I mean, communication was great. I. So as I mentioned, I was starting feeling so overwhelmed with my calling. I was meeting with my bishop weekly, and he saw how much we had going on with mixed faith marriage. I was still in law enforcement. I was very. I was having panic attacks being on law enforcement. So mentally, I'm not starting to be in a good place with that. And he mentioned one day, he's like, hey. He's like, do you just want to be released? And I remember sitting there and I just started bawling because I felt like I was. I was not. I was disappointed in the Lord because I accepted the calling and I needed, you know, should continue it until I get released. So I felt like I was not doing. Like I was failing the Lord. And just the thought of not doing. Not doing that, I just had a hard time just saying, oh, yeah, release me. So he, you know, told me to pray about it. And so for the next few weeks, I was going to the temple and praying about it and. And just with how much, you know, was going on with our marriage, I just. I felt like I had to be released. And so even I know the bishops asked me to be, you know, if I wanted to be released. And I just felt so much shame during that. I was still just. I was disappointing the Lord. I was, you know, letting people down in my ward because I was, you know, leaving my family. I was leaving Devil when she's having a hard time and I'd go serve other people. And so I just felt like I needed to get my priorities and I need to take care of my family. And so I did get released from that calling. And I think that was a start. Where I started, my mental health started. I think at that point I just started feeling so much shame and guilt around that. But then we're still working, we're still going to therapy. And I had a really good friend who I would tell him kind of where we're at with our marriage and we go to. He was, because I still want to go to the temple. But every time I went to the temple by myself, I would just end up being in the changing room crying because Devin wasn't there with me. And so I eventually would start going to temple with a buddy. And so after the temple, we talk about how I'm doing and how the marriage was going. And I remember he told me, like, he said, hey, charity is a. What is it now? I. What's the verse in the Bible? Charity is a.

John Dehlin [02:53:47] Charity never faileth.

Randy Day [02:53:48] Yeah, it's something about Christ.

John Dehlin [02:53:52] Like, charity church is the true love of Christ.

Randy Day [02:53:54] Yeah, I think that was it. So remember, he's. He's telling that. He's like, you know, parents saying like, you have an amazing wife and although she is not going to church, like you, you know, you start showing like, charity. And. And so that was a. I really appreciate that. So in the marriage, I was instead of just saying like, oh, like I'm better because I'm going to church, I really started implementing, like, moments where I can show charity to dev and just having more experiences of connecting on that level. And so I just. Yeah, so I felt like we were both trying to show more ways that we can kind of build that connection, not just on church things, but more of actual level of love. Again,

Navigating Tithing, Depression, and a Faith Crossroads

Devlyn Day [02:54:48] I think one of the big things we had to navigate through was tithing. And we had a really good bishop again at the time. He knew what was going on and we had approached him and, well, first I approached Randy and I said, hey, I have this idea. I'm not loving paying the church tithing. It's going against like some of my core value. And I feel like. So I. I work part time at the time. I'm a full time mom. He works full time and he's part time parenting with me. I'm like, we're equals in our marriage. We partner in everything. Just because you financially make more than me, we are both working equally as hard to support this family. I think a fair request would be because he would just say, well, pay tithing on what you or don't pay tithing on what you make and I'll pay tithing on what I make. But I'm like, that's still, I still feel like the money you make is still family money. Money I make is family money. We're not individuals in like how we run the household. And so I said, well, if we combine the total amount we make and you pay tithing on half and I don't pay. And so essentially we are now paying 5% tithing. And he did not love it because he didn't think it was allowed. And he said, let's talk to the bishop about it. And luckily we had a very lovely understanding bishop at the time. And he basically told us how you as a couple decide to do tithing is really none of my business. If you feel good about it. When I ask you if you're a full tithe payer, all you have to say is yes or no.

Margi Dehlin [02:56:31] How about that?

Devlyn Day [02:56:31] I don't need to know how you come about about that. And so that was a good point for us in like coming to how to navigate finances. And then our children's baptism was another kind of like point that we had to come across where our oldest, when our oldest was first getting baptized, it was kind of a challenging point. And I don't think we were quite in therapy when that happened or we were just starting therapy when that happened.

John Dehlin [02:57:09] Oftentimes the non believer will feel like eight is too young to make that decision or they just don't want them to become a member. But the believers, like everybody, all the Mormons get baptized at 8. The kid will even feel weird if they're not baptized. And all the family members will be expecting it. So it can be a real point of contention.

Margi Dehlin [02:57:27] Yeah.

Randy Day [02:57:27] Because all their cousins are getting baptized and so they're, they're aware, like yeah,

Devlyn Day [02:57:33] yeah, it's a huge rite of passage. Yeah, I didn't want to take that away from my child. I was just very anxious about the messages she was going to continue receiving from that.

Margi Dehlin [02:57:44] Also.

Devlyn Day [02:57:44] I felt like at the time the kids were always going to church. Like he would take the kids to church every week. I was home alone every week, which in some ways was nice. Like it was a nice little like quiet time, you know, a couple hours for me. But I kind of had this conversation with him of, okay, so she's eight, she's old enough to make a decision to become a member of the church to tie herself to this membership. If she's old enough to make that choice, shouldn't she be old enough to choose whether she goes to church or not? Which he was like, well, if she's choosing about get baptized, then she has to go to church. She's choosing to go to church. So we had a little bit of a moment there. That. That was several months of. I think I. What we ended up is I didn't want her to be forced to go to church. I wanted it to be her choice. So we came to the decision of bribing our children to go to church. So he had to bribe them every week, and if they could choose the bribery or to stay home. And he also wanted me to, like, not let them watch TV or do anything fun if they stay home with me, because then, like, that would encourage them to not want to go to church. So there was a little bit of, like, messiness around that time that we had to kind of wade through.

Randy Day [02:59:07] But that was a lot of. Part of when we talk in therapy a lot was, now, how are we raising our kids? Because now they're getting to the point where, like, baptism, they're, you know, they're hearing things. And so we would have these conversations and we'd take it to therapy. And a lot of the times, I remember one of the things about how I want to teach them gospel, really things Dev want to teach them, just being a good person. And so I would. Would tell the kids, like, hey, I believe this. And then Dev would say, you know what? That's what dad believes. And I believe this. And so we finally, we found a way where we can both teach our kids what we both thought. And then say, now, you know, what do you think? You know, not just saying dad is right or mom is right, but this is what we believe now. What do you think? And so we started implementing more situations like that, using those tools that we learned in therapy and trying to apply implementation, implement them at home. And then during this time, now that I'm taking the kids to church by myself, I start having panic attacks at church. I'm going to church, and then I'm running in the bathroom and just bawling because I'm starting panic attacks. And I'm like, I'm confused. Like, why? Why is this happening? This is weird. And so that was a weekly occurrence. And then again, just, you know, I'm just going to keep pushing it at the time. So now I'm teaching primary, and

Devlyn Day [03:00:49] I

Randy Day [03:00:49] remember having a conversation on the way home with our child. And she said, hey, dad, is mom a bad person? And I'm like, well, why do you say that? Well, she doesn't go to church or she drinks coffee. And so now I'm having to, like, tell my kid, like, no, mom's not a bad person. Well, the church says this. And so our kids are noticing more, being more aware of what the church is teaching and then how Dev is living her life. And so we just had to start having more hard conversations with our kids. And I think that was just kind of starting to eat me alive. Like, I should be like, yes, you're right. Like, coffee is bad and mom is bad for drinking coffee. But I'm like, no, I'm not gonna teach my kid that. So I'm starting these more. Kind of starting to have these not just black and white conversations with my kids, but like, hey, mom is still a great person. And anyway, so, yeah, I think just more of that started happening, and I just started getting into depression. Although I was living my. Living my life, and I'm doing what I should be doing, I started feeling really depressed. And Dev, you know, she. I can tell she's happy. It's not just like, oh, you know, she's happy because she's masking. You know, it's. No, I could tell, like, she was in really bad, like, depression before with our kids and after having kids, and I could tell she was really happy. And I'm just feeling miserable in life, and I just are having suicidal thoughts. And, you know, we have guns in our home, and I started having thoughts like, oh, I could just. I could just pick up a gun and I can, you know, end things. And I was having these really dark thoughts, and I didn't like them. Although these thoughts were occurring, I, you know, I tried pushing them down and.

John Dehlin [03:02:53] And.

Randy Day [03:02:55] And so luckily, I feel like when we go to therapy and talk about kind of like the. The agreement, we can talk about what needs to be talked on therapy. I started expressing how I'm feeling in therapy, and so we kind of put

Devlyn Day [03:03:10] a safety plan in.

Randy Day [03:03:11] Yeah. Like, of like how I can, you know.

John Dehlin [03:03:13] So you're having suicidal ideation.

Randy Day [03:03:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:03:16] Being in a mixed faith marriage. Yeah.

Randy Day [03:03:18] And it's confusing because. Because Dev's not going to church and she's happy and I'm having suicidal thoughts, and I'm going to church every week. I'm taking my kids every week. I'm serving faithfully. I'm doing home teaching or ministering. I'm going to the temple and it was confusing why I'm feeling this way.

John Dehlin [03:03:38] Yeah, I can imagine that's hard.

Randy Day [03:03:41] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:03:41] I'm so sorry. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:03:45] How did you work through that?

Randy Day [03:03:49] And so.

Devlyn Day [03:03:58] Well, one thing we. Sorry.

Randy Day [03:03:59] Yeah, go ahead. Yeah.

Devlyn Day [03:04:00] One thing we did do is our therapist did recommend he see someone about some medication because we want him to be safe. We implemented things to make sure that he was safe. And we still really started diving into, like, why he was feeling this way in therapy. And at the time, he wasn't connecting like that. It was church. There was stresses with work, stresses with just being parents and financial and stuff. But she really. Our therapist really had him questioning, like, why he thought he had to do certain things. Like, why do you have to teach your kids the gospel? Why do you have to have a sit down lesson? Like, he wanted to, like, have sit down, like, family night type thing where they sat and listened to him, like, lecture, like, why do you have to do it that way? You don't have to do it that way. And kind of taking pressure off of his expectations of himself. And I feel like that helped quite a bit. I mean, it took a while because it's a lot to unravel when you have put this in place in your life, that you have to do things a certain way to be good.

Margi Dehlin [03:05:12] Yeah.

Devlyn Day [03:05:13] And so I think he had to work through a lot of that.

Margi Dehlin [03:05:20] Yeah.

Devlyn Day [03:05:20] It was also around that same time that you started feeling that way is when we had agreed to let me have the date night when I expressed feeling alone, not being able to talk about things I was struggling with with the church. Feeling like he didn't want to know what I knew. We kind of came up with a plan in therapy where we could have it once a week date, where I would pick a topic that I could discuss with him around the church, but then I would also have to pick something that I liked about the church also, like, so kind of balance it out. I would tell him something that I thought was positive and good about the church, but also tell him something that I was struggling with.

John Dehlin [03:06:08] And I think the outline says two good things and one critical thing.

Devlyn Day [03:06:12] Yeah. Yeah, it was something like that.

Margi Dehlin [03:06:13] It was like kind of like two good things.

John Dehlin [03:06:15] Two good things for the church. One critical thing. Yeah.

Devlyn Day [03:06:19] So I think we made it for. Did we make it through even three topics?

Randy Day [03:06:22] I think so. Two or three weeks.

Margi Dehlin [03:06:24] Two or three weeks.

John Dehlin [03:06:25] Joseph Smith as treasure digger, Book of Abraham and Joseph Smith polygamy.

Devlyn Day [03:06:29] Yeah. Yeah. And after the third week, he told me, I think we need to take a break from this I'm starting to feel negatively towards Joseph Smith and I don't wanna feel that way. And so I need a break. And that was a break that we never picked the date night back up.

Margi Dehlin [03:06:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:06:48] It was a permanent break.

Margi Dehlin [03:06:49] Yeah.

Devlyn Day [03:06:50] Yeah. And this was all around the time he's feeling all these feelings too. So I was not gonna push it either. Cause I'm like, I don't need to push him into a faith crisis. Like, I was at the point where I had decided, I will be in a mixed faith marriage till I'm 80. I will be till I die. Till, you know, I am okay with this. I love him as a person. I choose him as a person. If the church brings joy and purpose into his life, I want him to have that. I don't want to take that away from him.

Margi Dehlin [03:07:19] That's really big. Yeah.

Devlyn Day [03:07:21] And I was like. Like, I want him to be happy. So I don't want to take something that makes him happy away from him.

Margi Dehlin [03:07:26] That's right. Or stabilizes his life.

Devlyn Day [03:07:29] Yeah. So.

John Dehlin [03:07:30] Especially if he's suicidal.

Devlyn Day [03:07:32] Yeah. So I was like, not going to push that topic. I was like. And we were working through so much in therapy, how to communicate, how to parent that. I was like, we're still. We're still having conversations, we're still communicating, we're still working through things. So it's not like it's putting a halt to everything. So. So I backed off on that. I don't know if you want to talk about how you were feeling during that time.

Randy Day [03:07:58] One day we just woke up and had a thought that Joseph Smith is a false prophet. And I was like, whoa, I'm going to turn it off.

Margi Dehlin [03:08:06] Yeah.

Randy Day [03:08:07] So I turned it off like a light switch. But it bothered me all week. And I even talked out to my therapist, like, hey, I had this feeling. And I do not like this feeling feeling. It's very uncomfortable. And so that's when I suggest, like, hey, let's take a break from this. And she was very kind to say, okay. And over time, you know, I was taking medication, we continue our work, going to therapy for my depression. And also at the same time, we're still working through our mixed faith marriage. And we just have. There's times where we would have a moment where we had a hard conversation about something because our kids are growing and we just keep having all these new things like achievement days or, you know, baptisms, or we had one child

Devlyn Day [03:09:00] decide she didn't want to go to church anymore and chose to stay home with me every Week.

Margi Dehlin [03:09:07] Right.

Devlyn Day [03:09:08] And so that was new or. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:09:12] I think something that's really interesting is just what happens when you start to connect to feelings. And when you've related to your life and your life experience in a way where there's always a positive. You're always kind of like, it's hard. It's hard to connect to feeling. And especially amidst a time when things are actually very complicated and there's not a lot of control. You don't have a lot of control over what's happening. And there's a whole lot of instability in your marriage as parents. Like, all the unknowns are, like, coming. Like, I just. And it's no wonder. This is, like, such a real tender, whole journey you're on. That no wonder it was overwhelming to me. I remember even coming out of the church and feeling like connecting to yourself can feel very overwhelming when you're not used to it. When you're used to being disconnected and just kind of looking outside, I remember feeling like, oh, I'm like a snail. Like, without a shell. I have no protection. Just. It's like anything that comes, it just feels like you're this. I'm just this defenseless blob where everything penetrates, you know? And so I'm just feeling for that hard. And I'm feeling for this part in marriage, having been in a marriage that's lasted, you know, decades and a lot of different things. Like, I think one of the hardest places to be in marriage is when one partner is feeling free, joyful, like, amazing. At the same time, another partner is feeling the opposite. Like, isolated, heavy, like, all the things. That's just a really difficult place to be in. In partnership, you know?

Randy Day [03:11:27] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:11:27] And connect.

Randy Day [03:11:28] Yeah. And I think during this time, I. I was starting to listen more to me, like, myself, not really realizing it, because there's some Sundays where I just wake up and I'd be like, hey, I'm just gonna stay home with you today. And she's like, okay. Which I wouldn't never skip church, especially. Cause I want to be example to my kids. But there are some days where I'm just, like. I was being more aware of how I was feeling. And so I started treating myself a little more kind where, like, hey, I started learning how to understand what I was feeling. And then. And then work towards that or worked on it. Like, hey, like, let's just stay home today because I'm not feeling good. Which, you know, usually I wouldn't like. Nope, I don't feel good. But I'm still Going. So I started being more kind to myself. I think exercise too was a big one. Just getting outside. And I started running because I, I was as a law enforcement, I ran all the time. So I was trying to get back into like running and just creating good habits. Started listening to more music because I feel like I just kind of stopped listening to music which has always been a big part of me. Like, I love music. It's so good for the soul. And so I just started doing things for me again. And yeah, I mean it came. It just, I started feeling happier again. I remember it was around Christmas time where it was. We had a really good Christmas day. And I remember telling Dev, like, hey, like I felt happy today. Like I haven't felt that in so long. So just have that like understanding. Like, oh, this is good. I felt happy again. Like I enjoyed life today. I enjoyed being with my kids. I enjoyed spending time with you. It was so happy. It was so nice to like start feeling those feelings again. And yeah, so I mean, I'm grateful that, I mean it was just, it could have that period of depression. I mean it could have been a lot worse and could have been longer, but I felt like maybe within six months I started getting out of that funk and just really connecting to myself and listening to myself of, you know, how I was feeling and.

Randy's Own Doubts Begin to Surface

Devlyn Day [03:13:41] Do you want to talk about conference cabin?

Randy Day [03:13:44] Oh yeah. So. So we, it was conference and I woke up one morning, I just told Dev, like, hey, I'm like, I'm. I don't know if, like I feel like I've been kind of trying, kind of struggling with my testimony. Like I've been going to church every week, taking the girls, but I'm having panic attacks in church and I don't know, I just, I'm just feeling like I'm losing my testimony. Like I still fully believe, but I'm just feeling like, I'm feeling like my tank is getting low. So I'm really hoping during conference that I can have like a really good message during conference today. So like something to like fill my tank back up. And so we had this conversation and that was the, that was the conference of Think Celestial talk. And, and so in that talk it talks about, you know, not taking advice from a non believer and don't counsel with.

Devlyn Day [03:14:47] Yeah, don't counsel us, those who do not believe. Like the same as you who gave that talk.

Margi Dehlin [03:14:52] Interesting.

John Dehlin [03:14:52] Nielsen, Russell and Nelson basically told members don't take counsel from inactive or non believing family members.

Devlyn Day [03:15:03] And what I heard was my partner is not supposed to counsel with me.

Margi Dehlin [03:15:08] That's right. Right.

Randy Day [03:15:09] And that was confusing because now in therapy, we're talking, we're communicating, and we're negotiating, like, we're figuring things out together and for our kids and for us. And it's been like, I won some, I lost some, but it wasn't over who won or lose. It was just more like communicating, learn how to talk to Dev about it and learning to find that balance. And it was starting to work out really well in our marriage. Like, I felt like for our mixed faith marriage, I feel like we're actually in a spot where, like, we can communicate without having tears and feeling pain. And so we're in a way where we're finally, like, we're there. Like, we can work through this as a couple. We can raise our kids in the church or out of the church, like, whatever they want to do. Like, we're finally a place where we can agree on how to. To teach our children. But then the prophet is telling me not to do that. And that was really confusing of, you know, just not having the conversation and telling me not to talk to my wife.

Margi Dehlin [03:16:11] Yeah, it was kind of. It sounds like, contrary to your experience.

Devlyn Day [03:16:15] Yeah, well, and the interesting thing for me. So the morning he told me that his testimony was struggling and he was really hoping and praying for, like. Like this really, you know, a talk that would be spiritually uplifting to him and help him move forward. One thing he expressed to me is he said, I'm worried I'm going to end up where you are. I'm worried that if I don't figure out my testimony that I'll end up out of the church like you, and I don't want that. I'm. I'm afraid of that. And I said, and I told him, you get to decide your journey. You do not have to end up where I am. Like, I support you in staying in. I will never do anything that tells you you shouldn't do what your soul is telling you to do. And I told him I was hopeful that he would also have something that he heard in conference that was good. And so it was later that day we went out on a date. We went out to eat without the kids. And I had asked him, how was conference? Like, did you get anything? Did you hear anything that, like, was helpful? And he was kind of like, not really. He was like, it wasn't bad, but it wasn't good. Like, it was just kind of neutral. And, you know, we talked about it for a bit, and there wasn't anything. Like, he wasn't, like, upset by it or anything. I did express not loving Nelson's talk and kind of feeling hurt by it. Like, concerned that this is what my children are hearing that they're hearing. Don't cancel with your mother if she's not believing. Don't listen while I can say, hey, here's what I believe and here's what dad believes. Only Dad's opinion is important.

Margi Dehlin [03:18:01] Absolutely. Yeah.

Devlyn Day [03:18:02] And we even had one of our children tell him she thought Heavenly Father loved him more than me because I didn't go to church. And so she was already getting that messaging that my tattoos are bad, that me drinking coffee was bad, that me not going to church was bad. And she's already receiving these messages, whether she's not directly receiving them from him. I don't think any of our family members are directly telling her this. She's just picking up on these things in her environment. And so I was concerned about that message and concerned about my children hearing these things about me, who, you know. Yes. And our therapist did tell me, like, because that was one of the things we addressed in therapy for me was kind of letting go and that knowing my children will know who I am, like, even if they hear these messages about me, that they. Their lived experience with me will show them that I'm a good person, that I love them, that I'm not these bad things. But it was a real fear for me that it would eventually, someday estrange my children from me if they saw me as less. But. So that was. And I might have not been able to have a conversation like that with him a year or two before that. But we finally were at a place where we could both express, like, hey, here's how I feel about this.

Randy Day [03:19:23] Yeah. And then I'm. I'm putting things on my shelf but not realizing it. Like, the whole that. The thing. Social talk, it was confusing, but I just. I just, you know, turned it off, put it away. And so. And so I think I started, you know, having these shelf items.

Devlyn Day [03:19:43] January. Yeah, I think that was the next thing.

Randy Day [03:19:46] And so finally, like, I'm feeling happy. I'm feeling. With my depression is gone, I'm feeling happy again. I feel like our mix of marriage is the strongest it's ever been. We're communicating well. And January of what year? Of 2024.

John Dehlin [03:20:03] So two years ago.

Randy Day [03:20:04] Yeah. Okay. And during this time is when Nick Jones, the video went viral for the bishop resigning over the pulpit. And so we were, you know, we talked about it. We Discussed it. And. And then I think she started following them on. On, like, TikTok. And then one day she showed me. They had a video, like a. They're doing family home evening. And their Internet went out there playing, like, Nintendo. And so then they had a family swear night. And she showed me this video.

Devlyn Day [03:20:36] And, like, it was just cute and funny. We love the videos where the kids are allowed to, like, say all the swear words they want for, like a minute or, you know, like, say your favorite swear word. The parents just give them permission to have that little bit of outlet. And so they were doing that. It was super. Like, they were belly laughing. It was so cute.

Randy Day [03:20:56] And I was laughing. I wasn't offended. I thought it was a funny video. And then we finished dinner and I go upstairs and I was just thinking, like, oh, that's pretty funny. That's wholesome video. And I went upstairs because now I'm also going to school at night. And so I start my class. And then I just have this really strong impression, really strong impression that the church is not true and Joseph Smith is a false prophet. And I felt like it just came out of nowhere. Yeah, it sideswiped me. And it wasn't something I could just turn off. I tried. I'm trying to do school. I'm just like, oh, everything's fine, everything's dandy. And I just. I focus on school, and then we go to bed. I didn't tell Dev about it. I slept. I didn't. I don't think I slept that night. It was just eating me alive, this feeling. And it wasn't just like, oh, like, I think it's not true. It was like, the church is not true. Joseph Smith is a false prophet. And it was just really strong feelings. And so the next morning, I. I told Dev I was having these really hard feelings, and I just broke down and I'm like, I don't know where they came from. Because again, I think I was putting items on the shelf during this time that she stopped going to church and I'm taking the kids on my own. But I wasn't realizing it, and I just had this strong impression that it wasn't true. And so. And I even told her, I'm like, I'm sorry that you felt this way all these years of. Because she's there, like, comforting me, telling me it's going to be okay, like, hey, like. And I just started feeling guilt of, like, all the years that she was feeling alone with these feelings. And I felt it for one night, and I'm just like, I'm so sorry. You. You've went through this all by yourself for years. And so then I just, you know, she asked me what I want to do. I'm like, well, I'm going to double down. I'm going to keep doing what I need to do. And so, you know, instead of going to the temple, you know, once a month, I started going to temple once a week. Instead of reading my scriptures for 30 minutes, I was going to read them for 45 minutes a day. I. Yeah. You know, so I just started doubling down.

Devlyn Day [03:23:11] And I knew how that was probably gonna go, but I also didn't want to jump ahead and, like, assume, and I didn't want to expect him to leave. I just know my experience. I was like, ooh, I tried to do that, and it didn't work for me. It probably is not gonna work for him. But also, he was in so much pain. And I was like, I don't. I don't want him to feel pressured. Like. Like, I'm all of a sudden jumping on it and be like, yes, leave the church with me. I'm so excited. I really felt bad. I was like, I feel heartbroken for him. And I told him, I will support you in whatever you want to do. If you want to stay and you want to make this work, if you need to go to the temple every week, go to the temple every week. If you need whatever you need, let me know. I will support you. And so, yeah, that's what he decided. He decided he was gonna double down, and I was okay with it. I was like, you know, you gotta have your own journey. You have to decide how you want to go with this.

Margi Dehlin [03:24:15] Right. That differentiation piece seems huge. Do you feel like that, John, that letting go of the rope? I feel like you used to talk about when you're kind of in this mixed faith.

John Dehlin [03:24:29] Yeah. Like, there's the ethics of it, and I think it's unethical to try and force someone to be religious, and I think it's unethical to try and take someone's faith away from them. So the ethics of it says, unconditional love be you, but love and support the other. And so I'm loving that I'm hearing that here from both of you at this point in the story. But also, I don't like. So it's unethical to try and get the other person to come to where you are, but you certainly don't want to make it less likely for them to come to where you are. And the worst thing you could do if you someday want him to leave the church, the worst thing you could do is try and pressure him to leave. Because that creates the backfire effect.

Devlyn Day [03:25:13] Yes. I listened to so many Mormon stories where you talked about the backfire. The fact it's almost like someone is rocking the boat and that person is just going to try harder to steady the boat. And so I felt like forcing this on someone is never the way to go about it. Absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [03:25:27] I think, too, sometimes there are times in relationships with people where you hit a block or you're experiencing it as sort of Randy. You're feeling this resistance and great pain when you're confronting this thought about Joseph Smith being a false prophet or. And I think sometimes I've. Ianyway, I've read Terence Real. He has a book called Rules of a New Marriage. And he talks about oftentimes what happens when one partner forges through this block that their partner is having. They're, like, forceful, trying to force them to see something, confront something that their partner is giving all evidence to say, I can't. I can't see it. This is too painful. You know, through behavior, through speech, through the. But they're kind of. And he talks about what happens, the cost of what's at risk when you do that is this. It's like a mental psyche frame. Oftentimes what you're hitting against is like a mental health protector. And so you want to respect that. You want to actually, when you feel that sense of resistance in another, you respect it, because what they're actually protecting, there are worse things. You want that for a loved one. And I just love that idea of showing trust, that there are some things that are worth protecting. And there are sometimes reasons you're hitting a block in someone and you don't just forge ahead. And I'm just loving that. At this point in your story, there's a lot of wisdom.

Devlyn Day [03:27:19] Yeah. That kind of reminds me. There was a moment where I had a friend who also left the church, and her husband left, like, pretty much simultaneously. And I was discussing how. How much of a struggle it was and with parenting and stuff, and how the girls were still going to church. And she kind of like. Like, offhandedly said, like, oh, if my husband ever said he was still gonna take the kids to church, I would put my foot down and say he couldn't. Like, I don't feel safe with my kids being there. And I remember kind of explaining to her, like, they're just as much my children as his children. And I feel like I respect him as a person and a father, and I don't feel like it would be fair for either of us to put our foot down and not work with each other and force the other to do something that makes them uncomfortable. And I just. I've always had such respect for him as a person that he is doing what he feels is right. And I feel like he, you know, as we went through therapy, he also felt the same with me, that we really respect each other enough that we're not going to force each other to do anything that we're not ready for or don't feel is right.

Margi Dehlin [03:28:29] And you also seem. Which I think can be, let's just say, a place of difference as to whether a marriage survives or not or remains a good fit is just a lot of values in alignment too foundationally. It feels like you're, at least with what you're describing, you have very similar values, even though you're living them in different ways. And I think that's not always, always the case. And it can sometimes create different outcomes as to whether a marriage makes sense or continues to be a good fit.

Devlyn Day [03:29:04] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:29:04] Yeah. So anyway,

John Dehlin [03:29:09] so you, in a moment, lost your faith.

Margi Dehlin [03:29:13] Gosh.

John Dehlin [03:29:15] After trying to double down and after all those years of being super faithful.

Randy Day [03:29:19] Yeah. And so I just, for. I don't know, it was a few weeks, I just kept doing everything. And she told me that, oh, hey, Nick Jones. And they did Mormon Stories podcast. And I listened to it and she's like, if you want. It's not like, I don't think it'll make you feel uncomfortable or anything, but if you want to listen to it. And so I did. So that was my first Mormon Stories episode. I listened to the Nick and Amanda Jones, and not that there was anything specific, they're saying that, like, related to, like, this exact situations I was experiencing. But during that, their. Their stories, I just started. I started connecting dots with, like, oh, man, this is why I resented this bishop for this as a youth. Or that's when I just. All these memories started, like, unlocking, like, because I'm finally in a place where I'm starting to listen to my intuition. And so now I'm having all these, like, things opening up in my mind and just a lot of emotions while listening to that. And it was weird. I was not expecting that. Again, it wasn't anything specific they said, but I just had this moment of, like, all these stories of, like, moments where I put things on the shelf and just this awakening, like, holy cow. And so it was Dev's birthday one night and I just asked her, I'm like, hey, what do you want to tell me about the church? And she's like, what? Like, just tell me something about the church. She's like, okay. And so she told me one thing about, like, church history, something that was like, upsetting to her. And I'm like, okay, tell me another thing. And it kind of caught her off guard for all these years of not sharing. And during these three weeks of doubling down, I told myself, I'm only going to listen to church approved material. So I was listening to podcasts by the church, or I started reading the church essays. And so I've read nothing outside of that. And so Deb was telling me the history. I'm like, oh, I read that in the gospel topic, but obviously it was kind of watered down version. So she's telling me all these stories of church history and it was overwhelming, but I didn't feel uncomfortable. I was learning about these things in our church history. And then, yeah, just different things. I just kept reading my scriptures and I'd read it and it would just feel different for the first time, like, okay, what if this is false? What if this is made up? And I would read it and I started having that sense of reading things differently. And the more I prayed and the more I was going to the temple, the more I just felt that feeling that this isn't true. And so I think after three or four weeks, I just told Ev. I'm like, I think I'm done. I don't believe it anymore. And it was just so. Yeah, just overwhelming. Like my whole life I've dedicated to the church and I just now feel light to learning these things. And so I made the decision that I was out, but I was still taking my kids to church. And so I'm like, you know, I want to keep going. I don't want to just stop going to church. I love church. I love the community, I love the temple, I love the scriptures. So it was just this weird time. And so I went to church with my kids probably about two more weeks. And it just felt uncomfortable at church the more, like during the talks I just started feeling like, cringe. They talk about Joseph Smith. And so I just started feeling. Feeling like it wasn't true. And so we went to church for Easter Sunday and I told Evan, like, I think this will be our last Sunday. And so I didn't wear a white shirt. I wore a blue shirt, no tie. We went to Easter Sunday and that was the last time we went to church, just during that three or four weeks, I just got my answers that the more I doubled down, the more I read my scriptures, the more I went to the temple, it was more. I believed it wasn't true. And so I felt like it happened really fast, but. And then. Yeah. So I remember one night, then we read the CS letter together and I was just bawling because I still loved the. I still love the scriptures. And so just making those connections and seeing things in the CS letter, I just. It was so hard, just kind of disconnecting, deconstructing. Like, I no longer believe the Book of Mormon is true. But that's how I was fed. That's how I got my spirituality. And so now finding ways to fill that without the scriptures or conference talks, it was. It was really hard. But I. After I made that decision of like, I'm done, then we just stopped going. Or I stopped going. You came. Cause it was Easter Sunday.

Devlyn Day [03:34:57] Yeah. I would go for holidays still, like, throughout the years, even though I stopped. I'd go for like Father's Day, Christmas, Easter, and primary program. So I'd go like four times a year. So we did go as a whole family the last time.

Margi Dehlin [03:35:09] Yes. Yep.

John Dehlin [03:35:12] And I'm curious how that was for both of you. Like, Randy, how was that for you to lose that all at one moment? And then I saw kind of big smiles from you, Devlin, as you're reflecting on him ultimately leaving. I remember when Margi told me she was going to resign, my reaction was like, don't stay. Don't do this for me. You can stay. So people think that the. The ex Mormon or the non believer just always wants the believer to stop believing and leave, but in my case, that's not always true. But I'm wondering how it was like for both of you.

Randy Day [03:35:52] I guess during this, when I'm doubling down, she was so supportive. I didn't feel like she was like, yes. No. She was like, hey, like, do what you need to do. Like, and then she even, like, I'd go to church and she'd be like, hey, do you have any good experiences? Like, she was there. Like, she was so supportive. Supportive during that time. And you know, the temple experiences when I was going during this period, I would go and I just. I didn't. I was waiting for this big, like, aha. Moment. It's true. And it never came. It was just more the feelings, like, I. It's false. And yeah. So I just.

John Dehlin [03:36:36] Sorry.

Randy Day [03:36:36] I don't know where I was Going.

Randy Leaves the Church and Both Find New Ground

John Dehlin [03:36:37] So when you. When you decided you didn't believe anymore and you weren't going to go, so was that depressing and sad? Was it a weight off your shoulders? Was it both? Was it.

Randy Day [03:36:48] It's so weird because I wanted it to be true so bad. I wanted it to. I really thought I was going to gain my testimony back.

Margi Dehlin [03:36:57] Yeah.

Randy Day [03:36:58] And I just didn't. It was more confirmation. It's not true. So it was easy to decide that it wasn't true. But, yeah, just obviously the. My whole life, my whole identity was Mormonism. So I even had a friend reach out to me and was like, hey, you gave this much time in the church, so many years in the church. Maybe don't just only take three weeks to decide this. Maybe it's something you take longer to decide and really think about it. And I was like, I really appreciate that advice, but. But it's hard, like, once, you know. You know, like, I just had that confirmation that church isn't true. And it was while reading the scriptures, it was while going to the temple. And so once I know it's not true, I don't want to go back. But it was hard just not having that, like, not going to the temple weekly. And I started kind of feeling like, the void of, like, oh, no. So it was just finding ways to. To fill that void during that deconstruction.

Margi Dehlin [03:38:02] That's right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:38:05] What was it like for you?

Devlyn Day [03:38:06] So during his doubling down, I. I truly was like, I am not going to do anything or say anything that would.

Margi Dehlin [03:38:13] Yeah.

Devlyn Day [03:38:14] Like, feed into him saying, I pulled him out or I influenced his decision because I did not want it to be about me. I wanted it truly to be his own thing. So, like, he said he'd come back from the temple. I'd be like, how was your experience? Like, tell me what you enjoyed about it. And he had his two friends come char home and give him a blessing. And after they left, I asked him how he felt about it. And he had told me, well, I felt loved by my friends, but I. It didn't make me, like, resolve any of my questions. And we would, you know, just really talk about his feelings about it. And I really just connected what I wanted during that time. I was, like, not gonna make it about my desire for him. My birthday, when he finally did say so, that had been. I think it'd been about a month of you kind of going through it. And he kind of said, hey, tell me whatever you want about church history. I was kind of. I was surprised. I was not expecting it. And I was a little, like, cautious because I was like, does he really want to know this? I did not want to jump into anything too deep. So I think I talked about all the. The things that had come out about the tithing and how SEC fraud.

Margi Dehlin [03:39:40] Yes.

Devlyn Day [03:39:41] And so I kind of talked about the SEC fraud. Yeah. Enzyme peak, all that. I kind of discussed, like, my concerns with tithing and how the money was being used, opposed to how we were taught about what it was for. And he was like, okay, all right. Yeah, I can see that. And then he was like, okay, what else? And I was really like. I thought it was going to be one thing. I thought it was going to be, like, our discussions. We had, you know, almost a year before that, where we had the date night, and I said one thing, and then we moved on. And so I was like, are you sure? He's like, yeah. And so I think we brought. I brought three or four things, and it was getting late at night. I was like, we should probably go to bed. And again, I was trying not to be, like, I wasn't excited. It was more like, I felt free again. Like, I felt like, I can open up to him. I can discuss things. I can't. I don't have to shove this part of, like, information down. I don't have to censor myself. I felt like it was so connective to be very open with him and honest with him about something that I had learned and been experiencing for years. And so I don't think I was happy as far as, like, oh, he's leaving the church. It was like, oh, my gosh. This just opened up a new part of our relationship that we can, like, be really open and honest with each other about. And so it was just like, I was so excited for that part. I still wasn't like, oh, he's going to leave the church. It was just like, oh, he's more open now.

John Dehlin [03:41:09] And

Devlyn Day [03:41:11] the next night, it was kind of the same thing. He's like, all right, let's talk more. And I was like, really? And. And at the end of that night, I was like, so, what do you want to do? Do you want to keep doing the doubling down? Do you like, what do you want to do? And that's when he was like, I think I'm done. And I think you wanted to do a slow fade. I think he wanted to try to, like, drag out the leaving originally. And then when he went a few times, he realized, like, it wasn't gonna be so hard. Yeah. Yeah. It Was like, I don't know that I really want to do that. Also, because we did have one child we were really concerned about. We didn't necessarily want to rip the band aid off. But also we felt like the longer we drug it out, maybe it would. She would cling on more.

John Dehlin [03:42:06] It'll be more traumatic.

Devlyn Day [03:42:07] Yeah, it was pretty traumatic for her. It was hard for her. And I think maybe we might have done things a little differently if we'd known it was going to be that hard for her. But you know, you know what, you know, at the time, so true.

Randy Day [03:42:23] But we actually, we sat down before we stopped going and we asked the kids like, hey, like, what do you like about church? And we got kind of things, different things they liked about like one liked the sacrament nether and liked doing like activity like, kind of like we do like in primary, like the sharing time. And so we started building kind of like our own home church before we even left, kind of what we would do. And we were already doing uplift kids. Uplift kids. We started doing that during our mixed faith marriage. And so we started kind of creating our home Sundays, what that would look like. So during that transition we would stop going and then we would have kind of a Sunday ritual. Yeah. And so we started our own little ritual every Sunday.

Margi Dehlin [03:43:08] Beautiful.

John Dehlin [03:43:12] And here you are. Here you are in Mormon Stories telling your story.

Margi Dehlin [03:43:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:43:18] How did you want to ask some questions? Yeah, go ahead.

Margi Dehlin [03:43:26] What was I going to ask? Well, I was going to just note, you know, how interesting it is when you have a shift. Like you had to try to explain it or even to predict, you know, your how it's going to play out for you. I just think people's journeys are so absolutely interesting in their own, you know, and so that's what I love about this story is you had really different journeys and you needed different things and you needed a different timeline, you know. But I guess I wanted to just ask. I feel like you've shared so much wisdom with regard to like what was not helpful, what increased suffering and what was truly kind of helpful with regard to you. Is there anything you feel like you didn't mention in your story that actually was really helpful or really harmful that you would want, let's just say a mixed faith marriage couple is listening, that you would kind of say, hey, here's something that was really helpful to us that maybe didn't come through in this interview, or here's something I really don't recommend or I regret, but

Devlyn Day [03:44:53] I have one thing I don't Know.

Randy Day [03:44:55] Yeah, go.

Devlyn Day [03:44:57] So I think it was helpful for us both to have people to talk to, to not feel so alone. He did talk a lot to, like, more family, friends. I had friends that eventually I was kind of. Some of my friends left around the same time. We just didn't talk about it until we found out. Eventually I did have a lot of friends who left, and I was able to talk to them about things I was struggling with. It was nice to have community.

Margi Dehlin [03:45:22] Yes.

Devlyn Day [03:45:24] And I think we were also at some point, aware that we were each talking to people about what we were going through. So it wasn't like a secretive thing. One thing I did find helpful is sometimes family or friends, people would ask him about me, like, what I was believing or doing or how things were going. And one thing I appreciated when we got further along in things is he would tell them, you can ask Dove about that. You can ask her. Because people didn't want to come talk to me about it.

Margi Dehlin [03:45:58] Such a great point.

Devlyn Day [03:45:59] And so it felt like. I think that was helpful is sometimes people are curious, but they're afraid to ask you or talk to you directly. I think it's helpful if your spouse can be like, hey, they are. They are more than willing. Or maybe they're not. I guess you have to know your spouse.

Margi Dehlin [03:46:16] Sure.

Devlyn Day [03:46:17] But if they are someone who is willing. I was afraid. I didn't want to put it on anyone. I didn't want to be, like, regurgitating things on people when people didn't want to hear about it or so. But I was more than willing. If someone came to me to talk to me, just no one was coming to me.

Margi Dehlin [03:46:33] Yeah, that's right.

Devlyn Day [03:46:34] So that I did find that helpful. I think if you're in a place where you can, you know, let people know if your spouse is willing to talk or not about what they're going through and open up just more vulnerability overall.

Margi Dehlin [03:46:51] Yeah. And more direct communication as opposed to, like, bypassing that. Your spouse is trying to represent as best they can what you're.

Randy Day [03:47:03] And that's what I was going to say. Just that's. I just having the hard conversations. Then. You don't have to agree. But I think I was just so scared of having those conversations. And then. And then, you know, I'd start having, you know, these thoughts or feelings or. But just having those conversations because how much she felt alone during. And just, you know, during that time. So I just, you know, I wish I had had the courage just to be more like, you're my wife. Have these Open conversations with you and really understand how you're feeling.

Margi Dehlin [03:47:44] Yeah.

Devlyn Day [03:47:45] Yeah. I think oftentimes we're trying. I think we were both trying to protect each other a little bit from pain, and it ended up creating a wall by not having the discussions or being afraid of, like, causing too much suffering in each other. And it. The silence caused, I think, more suffering. Right. Than actually having the discussions. And so I think if you can find. And I think when we both got our minds around, he wasn't trying to bring me back and I wasn't trying to take him out. I think when we were able to come to a place where we just wanted each other to be happy and to enjoy each other in our own happiness, I think it was much more manageable and our marriage improve significantly.

Margi Dehlin [03:48:31] Yeah, that makes sense.

Devlyn Day [03:48:33] Yeah.

Reflecting on the Journey and Rebuilding the Marriage

Margi Dehlin [03:48:34] I wanted to go back and just touch a moment because I don't feel like we actually went into it very much, but I do feel like. Randy, you mentioned Devlin experiencing a period of a lot of joy while you were simultaneously feeling worse and worse. But we didn't really hear of that joy. And I would love to just spend a moment hearing a bit of. And maybe you're still there, but, like, can you share some of the joy that you feel being where you are?

Devlyn Day [03:49:08] Yeah. I had a really good therapist, personal therapist, before our marriage therapist. It was right before COVID and everything shut down. And I expressed feelings of if I did what I wanted to do, people would consider me selfish. And I was really worried about pleasing everyone.

Margi Dehlin [03:49:28] Right.

Devlyn Day [03:49:29] Not hurting anyone. How everyone viewed me was really important. And I was not taking care of myself. I was taking care of everyone physically and emotionally around me.

Margi Dehlin [03:49:41] Right.

Devlyn Day [03:49:41] And like I said, I was that empty picture. I had nothing to pour, but I was trying to give everyone any little drop that I had, and I lost myself. And you often hear of moms losing themselves. I felt like I even knew who I was anymore. And even, like, to the point of, like, did I want to get married? Did I actually want to have kids? Or was that just what I was told I was supposed to do? And I just did it. And I assumed it's what I wanted. And I found motherhood very difficult. I was told it was going to be the greatest joy of my life, and I found it really, really hard. And it wasn't bringing what I thought it was going to bring or the way I thought it was going to bring it. And I really, really lost myself as a person, and I didn't know who I was anymore. And this therapist really Encouraged me to start doing things for myself and finding myself. And that if there were people who judged me for that or didn't like me for that, that they didn't know who I really was. And that the people who truly love me would still truly love me. And that I wasn't taking care of myself, wasn't selfish. And he also expressed. Because I expressed that I didn't. I was concerned about, you know, it was always about, like, my family always told me, like, we had this lineage. Right. And I was so worried about disappointing them. And he's like, you're a pioneer for your future children, and. And what you're doing is brave and it's worthwhile. And so slowly, around that time, I hadn't been wearing garments for, like, a year, and I started just, like, wearing clothes I wanted to wear.

Margi Dehlin [03:51:26] Right.

Devlyn Day [03:51:26] And, like, it was, like, really scary. I think the first time I wore, like, something immodest around his sisters. Like, we were going on girls night, and I was like, they're gonna judge me. They're gonna, like, think I'm a bad person. But I just, just. He even said, go wear it. Don't change what you're wearing to go out with them. Like, you look great.

Margi Dehlin [03:51:45] Yeah.

Devlyn Day [03:51:45] And I remember going to that. And his one sister did say, I really like your outfit. It's really cute. She's very kind. The only one who ever said anything. Like, everyone else ignored things, but she's. And it built, like, this confidence in that I could make choices for myself.

Margi Dehlin [03:52:00] Yeah.

Devlyn Day [03:52:00] So I did that. I had always wanted a tragus piercing. I don't know why that specific piercing, but I just thought it was really cute. And I was like, like, I'm gonna get the piercing. I dyed my hair purple for a while. Yeah, I loved it. I gotta, like, express more of, like, my artistic self again. I started doing art again. I started connecting with my friends more. Like, making time to, like, do the girls night, talk to people, get out of the house and do something I wanted to do. Yeah. And.

Margi Dehlin [03:52:36] And,

Devlyn Day [03:52:38] yeah, slowly I felt like I was finding myself. And I had, as long as I can remember, been a highly anxious child, even. And my teenage years, I was highly anxious. In my young adult years, I was highly anxious. In motherhood, I was. I was very anxious. And I had also long bouts of depression throughout my life. And all of a sudden I noticed, like, I'm not having anxiety, like, regularly. Like, I saw moments here and there, but it wasn't, like, overwhelming me. And I'm not, like, in these Long periods of depression and I'm, like, enjoying life and I'm excited to try new things.

Margi Dehlin [03:53:18] Yeah.

Devlyn Day [03:53:18] And anytime I was, like, gonna do something new, like, I'd already done coffee and not wearing garments, and so, like, that I kind of sideswiped him with. But as we started going to therapy, I would discuss things like, hey, I would really like to get a tattoo. And I know it's not your favorite thing, and I'm not asking for permission. I'm just letting you know so you can tell me how you feel about it.

Margi Dehlin [03:53:43] Yeah.

Devlyn Day [03:53:44] And we can have a discussion around it. And so we started having conversations like that to where I would, like, I kind of took back some of my autonomy.

Margi Dehlin [03:53:53] Yes.

Devlyn Day [03:53:54] And. And I just remember feeling so much lighter. And I felt like, you know, that whole, like, people leave the church and they have, like, this darkness and this, like, bad countenance. I felt like all of a sudden I was like, brightening and like, I was so happy. I felt like more at ease in my own skin, even just making choices and not second guessing myself. Just being, like, listening to my intuition and being like, like, this is right for me and I don't have to worry about what other people think because I know it's right for me. Or, you know, in parenting, feeling confident in, like, how I was going to talk to my kids about something. I didn't have to lecture my kids anymore and get them to agree with me. We could just have an experience where they noticed something and ask a question and we could discuss it. And I didn't feel like I had to teach them the right thing. I just had to, like, like, talk about things and have conversations and learn about them and why they felt things. And I didn't feel this pressure of, like, if my kid makes a bad choice, it's my fault, too. That was a huge thing in the church. I was like, responsibility. If I don't do everything right and my kid falls away, it's my fault. It's on my head now is like, hey, we're all in this journey together. I'm a new mom, my kids learning how to be a human. We're kind of in it together there. I'll do my best. And they're going to turn out how they're going to turn out out of choices they make too. And it's not all on me. I heard this analogy of raising children. It's like there's someone who is like a potter and they think having a child is like molding this pot. But then there's the gardener and they plant the seed and they nurture it and. And they water it and it grows, how it's going to grow. And so I shifted my parenting into, I'm not going to mold my child into this thing that I want them to be. I'm going to nurture them and care for them, and they are going to grow into who they are. And it really was such a relief.

Margi Dehlin [03:56:03] So anxiety relieving.

Devlyn Day [03:56:06] Yes. And I think he just saw me, like, settle in into who I was and be more confident. And I think he was like, what? What's happening? Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:56:19] That's amazing. That's amazing. And Ariel, I think there's a lot of work that you've done in there, and it's really beautiful to hear.

Devlyn Day [03:56:29] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:56:30] Can we do the same for you, Randy? A little moment like what joy, you know, what you've reclaimed or what you've brought back or, you know, what it looks like for you in this moment?

Randy Day [03:56:43] Yeah. I've never been a big reader in books besides the Book of Mormon, and so I've gone into books and reading, just learning how to. I think after leaving, I just still kind of felt shame and guilt and so finding books to help balance that. And so there's. Because I felt. Yeah, felt a lot of shame after leaving. And so there's one book, it's called When Religion Hurts you. And so reading that, I just felt understood. And, you know, she talks about, you know, religious trauma and why that happens and how to cope with that. And so it was just very healing to read that book during that time and to learn more about myself. And so I started reading Richard Rohr books and just learning that I can because I still believed in God and I still, you know, it was looking different, but hearing, you know, other people's views and it was a way for me to stop thinking black and white and more learning how to feel. And now someone tell me how to feel, but learning how to kind of same thing. Devs, you know, learning how. What makes me happy and okay, the church taught me this. What do I think? And just kind of really learning how to listen to myself and then be okay with what I thought, you know, oh, well, you know, instead of thinking, oh, that's bad or that's not right. So, yeah, I got big into reading and I love music and I stopped playing a band for a few years, and so I've been playing in a band again and just finding that joy that in playing music and writing music and. And then just spending time with my kids, I Remember, Just remembering we stopped going to church and Sundays. Just felt like this weight off my shoulders. I didn't have to go perform and do all these things, but I could just actually enjoy a day with my kids. And so I love just, you know, just spending time with them and playing games and not feeling pressure, like, oh, I have to teach this. Like, just being more present with them in the moment. And so, yeah, we do, like, a lot of hikes or bike rides and, yeah, just learning how to. Learn how to make decisions on my own. Yeah, that was a big one. Learning how I. How I felt and then doing what made me happy and still supporting my wife and my family. And,

Devlyn Day [03:59:46] yeah, I think he became so much more open to hearing other points of views in general. It just opened up a whole new world for you. Of, like, you were more curious.

Margi Dehlin [03:59:59] Yes, I'm feeling that. I'm feeling curiosity, yeah.

Randy Day [04:00:03] Cause one of our kids is very. From a young age, she was all about her feelings, and so she would see things not black and white, and that would confuse me. So learning now, like, hey, there's more than just to, you know, being a yes man. Because that was my whole life, just pleasing other people. And so, yeah, just finding the joy and making myself happy.

Margi Dehlin [04:00:29] Yeah, lovely. That's all I have for my questions.

John Dehlin [04:00:35] So this has been amazing, and I'm so glad we did it. I'll end with just two quick questions. One is, you know, I think it was you, Devlin, who said that you saw kind of two options. One is, you know, that your marriage ends because you lose your faith, and he believes and he leaves you because you lost your faith. And the other is that you both leave, and those are the only two options you saw. And it's like the second one kind of did come true.

Margi Dehlin [04:01:04] Yeah, right.

Devlyn Day [04:01:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:01:06] Took time, but that's how it ended up. And that, honestly, is how it often ends up. Because, I mean, it's hard to. You know, I think in Fiddler on the Roof, it's like a bird may fall in love with a fish, but where will they build their nest? You know what I mean? Like, when you have totally different worldviews, sometimes it can be really hard to still stay connected. Some do it, but it's hard. What ends up happening is the bird becomes a fish or the fish becomes a bird, and they pick. You know what I mean? Spiritual. If a believer looked at your story and said, see? See, Randy? You should have left her, because now you've left and now your kids are going to leave. So that's My first question is, what would you say to someone who said, you should have left her this marriage? This is not a happy ending. Even though you neither are suicidal now, you're both mentally healthy and your marriage is better than ever, you still have left the covenant path, betrayed your covenants, and now you've all left the church and your kids are probably going to leave too. So what would you say to that, first go?

Devlyn Day [04:02:12] Well, I would say something our bishop actually told him when he expressed being concerned about our marriage not being eternal because I was leaving. His bishop said, we don't know how this is going to end up. What makes you think you're worthy to end up there even if she didn't leave? He said. And then the other thing I would say is, our family is so connective and loving, and why would we break that up just because someone feels differently about the church? Like, would God really want your family to be broken and separated because you view things differently? And that is the one thing I said when we talked about the ceiling and how I feel about it. I know he remembers the detail, but I told him I don't think the sealing ordinance is what connects our family forever. If there is something that is forever, I think it's our love and devotion to each other and our family that. That seals us, that bonds us. I don't think some ordinance by a man in the temple is the thing that makes our marriage valid. I think we. And the work we put into it and the love we put into it is what makes our marriage work, what seals us together. And I knew so many people who are never Mormon, who are devoted to their families and their spouses. And do I really think God's not going to let them be together forever because they didn't go through the temple and do this stuff? And so I would say, and it didn't necessarily have to end up the way it did. I mean, I think it often does. But I was willing to stay in that place forever with him if he never reached this point of his own faith crisis. I know I was willing and he was willing to stick the marriage out because we loved each other. And so while I think it does tend to go one way or the other, I think it is possible. And I think by year three or four, I came to that, like, acceptance of. Of whether he stays in this forever or not. I wanna stay with him. And so I think if you make that choice, I think. I don't think it's the faith crisis that breaks the marriage. I think it's the willingness of both people to stay in it together and work with each other.

Margi Dehlin [04:04:38] Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful.

Randy Day [04:04:41] And you could have left me just as much as I could have left you.

Devlyn Day [04:04:44] And that happens, too.

Margi Dehlin [04:04:45] Absolutely. Both ways.

John Dehlin [04:04:46] Yeah.

Randy Day [04:04:47] And so, I mean, she's. I feel like she's out of my league. And so I got lucky. So I'm like, why? She could leave me anytime. But I think it just went back to that, that checklist, like, you know, okay, I married her because of, you know, she had a strong testimony and, you know, we got married in the temple and so realizing, like, it's not just the church thing. I love her. And, you know, we have our friendship, our relationship that we built, all the experiences we've been through, you know. Yeah, I could have left her, but then, I mean, I left her, though, so. And so just holding on to that and then getting to the place where we were in a mixed faith marriage, but we both felt like we were finally in a place where we can communicate with each other and, you know, make decisions, you know, together. And so, you know, I wouldn't throw that away. I wouldn't want to try that for anything. I'm glad that we went through that. You know, I think it's out of love. So it wasn't just, you know, based off church or, you know, decisions, but it was because I truly loved her and we. I feel like I've been more in love with her now after our mixed faith marriage, once we got to a good place of communication, I felt like I was even more in love with her. And this is before I left the church, so I felt even a stronger connection to her going through that with her.

Devlyn Day [04:06:15] And so, yeah, plus there's no guarantee that you leave that marriage. And what if you have a faith crisis and then you ended the marriage and you end up. Or you marry someone else and they have a faith crisis. Are you going to keep ending marriages? We just. We never know.

Margi Dehlin [04:06:30] Absolutely.

Devlyn Day [04:06:31] And so it's. It's kind of flippant to say you should just leave because it ended up badly. Because, I mean, we don't feel like it ended up badly, but.

Margi Dehlin [04:06:41] That's right. That's right.

John Dehlin [04:06:42] And that was going to be. My last question is, like, the church teaches wickedness never was happiness and that you shouldn't break your covenants, but y' all have left the church. And so an orthodox view is that you've violated your covenants and you've become wicked. But then how can that be if you're both healthier than ever? And your marriage is better than ever. It must be that what you did wasn't wicked or wickedness can lead to happiness. One of the two.

Devlyn Day [04:07:12] I mean, maybe my covenants to God I, you know, would consider be broken, but I feel like I covenanted to give myself unto him, and I really did.

John Dehlin [04:07:23] You haven't broken your covenants, that's what you're saying?

Devlyn Day [04:07:25] Yeah, I haven't. You know, we haven't strayed from each other. So it's like, in some ways, I still hold my commitment to him as a very sacred thing that I value.

Margi Dehlin [04:07:40] Yeah, absolutely. I feel like that is your love story.

John Dehlin [04:07:46] And, Randy, if somebody says you shouldn't have developed empathy for her because it ended up causing you to leave, empathy is dangerous. Empathy is dangerous. Y' all are laughing. I'm sure some people are thinking that

Randy Day [04:08:02] that's why I'm laughing, because it's very similar experiences with friends or, you know, so. No, it's. It goes back to the way I was feeling. You know, all the many times that I've prayed about something, the many times I've gone to the temple in prayer, the many confirmations from the Spirit, you know, throughout my life, I've done that hundreds of times of, you know, finding what. Okay, what's right and following that spirit, following that direction, that feeling of the Holy Ghost in those decisions. And so having that same feeling, Holy Ghost, telling me that I need to say in my marriage, I need to support Dev, you know, following those feelings is what kept me in my mixed faith. Marriage is Lord telling me, like, hey, you know, we're going to work this out, and then having those same confirmations that the church isn't true. So it goes back to that feeling of I'm going to follow that feeling that I've had that I've referred to as the Spirit throughout my life, the Holy Ghost, or however you want to, you know, identify that. But those feelings, you don't ignore. And it has. It has brought me. I never thought that, you know, I would leave the church or never thought I could find happiness outside the church. Not a million years, I'd think that. And so I'm glad I followed those promptings and it's led us to where we are because it's been amazing. It's been beautiful.

John Dehlin [04:09:40] Well, that's a great way to end. Yeah, we like ending with amazing and beautiful.

Randy Day [04:09:44] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [04:09:44] And we agree. We agree with the amazing and the beautiful.

John Dehlin [04:09:47] Yeah. Let me give a quick shout out to marriage on a tightrope Facebook community and podcast. Alan And Katie Mount are dear friends of ours. Katie still believes and attends church. Alan doesn't, but they still are married and they're all figuring out. And it's still a great Facebook community of support and a series of podcasts that I don't think they're actively podcasting, but it's an archive you can go back and enjoy. But it's a great resource. So shout out to the marriage on a tightrope community and to Alan and Katie.

Devlyn Day [04:10:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:10:25] Any final words before we end?

Devlyn Day [04:10:28] No,

Randy Day [04:10:33] No.

John Dehlin [04:10:34] I mean, it's only been four hours and ten minutes.

Devlyn Day [04:10:37] Well, that went by quick.

John Dehlin [04:10:39] Quick. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [04:10:40] We're grateful.

John Dehlin [04:10:41] All right, thank you.

Randy Day [04:10:42] Well, thank you for having us. It's been a. I have great opportunity to come in and talk about it. I know we had friends leave a year ago and we talked about our story and told them and they've reiterated how much our story meant to them during that time. And so we wanted the opportunity to share this with other people and hope others can find this helpful.

Margi Dehlin [04:11:08] That's right. And I love how it's brought out in your story. It's really less important about where you end up. It's really more the point how you show up during the time and how you build your love amidst what you're experiencing and the differences together. So, yeah, we honor you. Thank you.

Randy Day [04:11:34] Thank you, thank you for having us.

John Dehlin [04:11:36] And to be clear, if there's a couple out there who has navigated a mixed faith marriage and they both decided to stay in the church. Church. Or the nonbeliever is a believer again. You're next on Mormon Stories podcast. Apply. Go to mormonstories.org apply. Apply. We will have you just as quick because we do not believe that the preferred outcome is that both leave the church or that the family leaves the church. We think you can find joy and happiness in the church or out of the church. And we do not have a goal of trying to push people in one direction or not. This is just. They applied. So if you want to tell your story, please apply. Fair.

Devlyn Day [04:12:16] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [04:12:17] Yeah.

Randy Day [04:12:18] Amen.

Closing Thoughts and Advice for Mixed-Faith Couples

John Dehlin [04:12:18] All right. All right. Well, thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Please consider supporting us as a donor@mormonstories.org donate if you're not already a donor. If you are a donor. Thank you. We really appreciate it. Again, MormonStories.org apply to be on the show. We'd love to have you. You please like and subscribe across all the channels. That helps us with the algorithms. Please share this with whoever you think might benefit from it and most importantly, fight for your marriage. A healthy religion should never break up a couple, you know, in and of itself. Right. A healthy, you know, a good religion should never break up a healthy family or a family that otherwise could be healthy or stay together. So fight for your marriage. And, you know, hopefully you've learned something today that will help you with that. So, again, Devlin Day, thank you for coming on Mormon Stories. Randy Day, thank you so much.

Randy Day [04:13:25] Thank you.

John Dehlin [04:13:27] Margi, thank you. It's great to have you back. We've missed you. Thanks for being here.

Margi Dehlin [04:13:31] Thank you.

John Dehlin [04:13:32] And email us@mormonstoriesmail.com with any feedback or questions. And other than that, be good to each other. Other be kind to each other. And we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.